« CONGRESS. PHILADELPHIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, TUESDAY November. 15, 179r. IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE. Debate on the Ratio of Representation. (continued.) MR. HILLHOUSE said lie had ever been a friend to a republican form of government, and God forbid, added he, that 1 should ever give my vote for any measure that should endan ger the liberties of my country. He said he was in favor of an energetic government, as that a lone can secure the blessings ofliberty—As to the dread of corruption in this House, which some gentlemen appeared to entertain, he thought there was 110 foundation for such an apprehenfi -011 ; at least, said he, as the idea refers to one or two hundred representatives—two hundred he contended were as easily corrupted as one— But the corruption coniemplated was a meer mat ter of opinion ; no farts, he presumed, existed in this country to juftify a positive assertion, and as to foreign countries, it seems to be conceded that a larger number than any that has been mentioned is susceptible of undue influence.— He then adverted to the reftricftions on the Pre sident of the United States, and the Senate, in refpecfl to the means of corrupting the legifla ture—l he Constitution has also made provision to secure the independence of the members, &c. He then urged some difficulties which would be occauoned by a small ratio. —He observed that the population of some of the states was nearly stationary—it a small ratio is now established, the consequence will be when it is augmented, that the representation of those states muff be dimi nilhed—this he conceived, would be a measure that would be greatly disliked. With respect to the proposed amendment, he thought it was en tirely out of the question, till it was ratified by three fourths of the states. A very numerous representation, he further observed, would tend to weaken if not destroy the state governments, and that in the ifl'ue would destroy the general government—For, said he, they mutually depend on each other for support. Mr. Sedgwick rose for enquiry, whether if the word thirty should be struck out, it can be restor ed ? For though he wished for an encreafe of the ratio, yet he thought it ought to stop short of 40,000. He was in favor of making the pro posed amendment to the Constitution, the rule to guide the House. He said he had no idea that the liberties of this country depended on the dif ference in the representation between 100 and 113 members. With more than 1800 watchmen, in the state legislatures, he conceived that the li berties of this country were perfeiflly fafe—and he never could believe that the people of the United States would ever be slaves ; he was sure they never would so long as they were jult to themselves and deserve to be free. Mr. Heiiter was in favor of retaining the ratio of one to 30,000 —He Hated sundry particulars refpedtiug the very distant local (ltuations of the representatives of the United States, which ren dered it almost impofiible for theprefent number to do compleat justice to their lefpective diftricfts. Mr. Kitchell was in favor of a numerous re presentation—He thought the amendment pro pored to the Constitution ought to be the guide to the House on this occasion. He did not draw his ideas of what fho.ild constitute a proper re presentation, from the examples cited from fo reign conntiies—nor was he actuated by an ap prehension of corruption, as more applicable to a final] number than to a large one ; but when he considered the various objects, views, denomi nations, profeffions, callings and interests of the citizens ofthe United States, he was fully con vinced that a large reprefentacion was necessary to embrace the wifbes and answer the expectati ons of the people.- He fliould therefore vote a gainlt the motion for (hiking out 30,000. Mr Findley rofc to explain certain expressions flitch he said had been mifnnderftood- he de fended the opinion he had before advanced, re fpeaing a large reprelentation. In reply to Mr. Clarke he observed, that the information to which he alluded when he said that a larger num ber would enable the representatives to adapt the laws and proceedings of government, to the circumstances of the country, was that species of knowledge wh.ch arises from a more perfect re the people 0 " ° leWantS ' Wi<heS ' a " d imerefts of Mr. Gerry closed the debate this day—He took a general survey of the arguments against tfce proposed ratio of one to 30,000 In noticing the objection from the instability of the Itate legis latures, he fair! it was not owing to their num bers, but to the mode in which they are eledled —were the Senates and executives of the several (fates cholen asthofe of the general government, there would have been as much liability and con filtency in their tranfacftions, as in thole of the government ofthe Union. A gentleman had said that the proposed amendments to the Constituti on, had been adopted with relutftance by some of the states which had accepted them—He call ed 011 the gentleman to produce his authorities for this adertion.—A relative proportion between the members of the Honfe and the Senate had been suggested ; this idea, he said, had no foun dation in the Constitution—and he further ob served, that the Conftitulion has so compleatly guarded and secured the rights and indepen dence ofthe Senate, that he could not conceive of the apprehensions of gentlemen, who appear tj think that an encreafe of the members of this House will overwhelm that branch of the legif lature—ln all events the privileges of that bod}' will remain the fame. The States it is said have reduced their representative aHemblies— This,he said, so far from being an argument againfl. the proposed ratio, was directly 111 favor of it—The diminution of the Itate legislatures has been oc casioned by the idea which the people entertain of the encreafing importance ofthe general go vernment—The objetfls of legislation to both go vernments are nearly similar ; they relate to those important concerns which interefl: the feel ings of every citizen of the United States—all the difference lies in the magnitude of their re fpecftive spheres of action—hence it miift evident ly be the wifii and expectation ofthe people, that their interelts in every point of view, fliould be fully and adequately represented in this House. The gentleman from North-Carolina, has said, that extending the fphereof Representation will lead to a choice of more competent characters ; but he observed, that the larger the sphere, the less knowledge of the merits of candidates—and the electors will be obliged to rote on trust. The mode of election in Great-Britain, and not the number of the members of the House of Commons is the source of that corruption which has been so frequently alluded to ; the mode of election in that country admits of an executive influence in the election of a majority of the members ; this is the rotten part of their con llitution which requires amputation. He did not apprehend any danger from undue attempts to influence or corrupt the members of the house—but though he admitted that the go vernment may be untainted at the present time —yet he conceived it the belt policy to prevent the evil, rather than to wait for a corrupt adini nittration and then to seek for a remedy. The idea which had been suggested, that en creafing the federal representation, would tend to diminifli the importance of the State govern ments in the estimation of the people, he con ccivccl had no foundation ; it supposed a want of wisdom in the community at large, which supposition had nothing to support it. The peo ple know that their happiness depends on pre (erving the balance between the State govern ments and that of the Union. The government of the union lias been justly compared to a pyramid ; he wiflied that the base which was confHtuted by the representative body might be broad in order to give it (lability —and therefore hoped that the original motion or one representative to every thirty thouland persons would be adopred. FRIDAY, November 2J. Resolutions of the House rcfpelting the conteflid eltc- tion of Anthony Waynt, member from Georgia. RESOLVED, That the firft Monday of Febru ary next be assigned for the trial of the article' alledged in the petition againfl the said return. Resolved, That the evidence which may be of fered on the part of the petitioner, fliall be con fined to the proof of the articles of charge exhi bited in the said petition, against the validity of the return of the said election. Retblved, That on the trial, the deposition of a vvinicfs ihall be received, which (hall have been taken more than 25 days prior to the day allign ed for the trial, before any jultice or judge of the courts of the United States, or before any chan cellor, justice or judge of a supreme or superior court, mayor or chief magistrate of a city, or judge of a county court of common pleas of any of United States, not being of counsel or attor ney to either the said Anthony Wayne or the pe titioner : provided, that a notification from the magistrate before whom the deposition is to be taken to rhe ad verse party to beppresetn t at the tak ing of the fame, and to pot interrogatories if he think fit, fh.ll have bee.l firfl and fa v ed on the adverse party, or his attorney fpeci neJrefl '•f' 1 - e h pU^ofe ' as either maybe nearefl, if either is wuhin one hundred miles of the place „f su ch captlon> a n owin ; mefor h j attendance, after nonfied, not less than at the rate of one clay, Sundays exclusive, for every 246 twenty miles travel. And every nerfon rW r I 1 all be carefully examined and cautioned 5 vorn or affirmed to teftify the whole truth *"1 shall subscribe the testimony by him or t. given, after the fame (hall be reduced to writiS" which /hall be done only by the magistrate r^ 1 * ,hc<i r fi,i„„ , r bv, l ,/d/ ponenM | , And the depositions so taken, together with,re/ tificate of the notice, if any, given ,o theadverfc party, or 11S aUorn ey, shall be sealed up by th ! laid magiitrate and directed to the Speaker Provided nevertheless, That no « de tion shall be used on the trial of the laid peliS' which shall have been taken at any timL before the 26th day of December next. Provided all" That evidence, taken in any other manner than is herein before direded, and not objected to bv the parties, may, with the approbation of the house, be produced on the trial. MONDAY, November 28. The bill for the relief of David Cook was read a second time, and referred to a committee of the whole house to-morrow. Mr. Sedgwick presented the petition of Samuel Negus, which was read and referred to the Se cretary at War. Sundry petitions, praying for the settlement of accounts, and the renewal of loft ordeftroyed certificates—were read and referred to the Se cretary of the Treasury. Mr. Thatcher presented the petition of Samuel Procftor, which was read and referred to the Se cretary at War. The memorial of James Simpfon, a surveyor under the late geographer general of the United States, was presented—read and referred to the Secretary of the Treasury. Mr. Muhlenberg presented the petition of Ni. cholas Schultz, which was read and referred to the Secretary at War. Mr. Clarke presented the petition of Joel Phelps, praying the benefit of a pension in con sequence of difabilicy incurred while in the ser vice of the United States. The report of the Se cretary at War on the petition of said Phelps re ferred to him at the last session, was called for, which being read, the following refolntion was moved, and agreed to by the house—That the reports of the Secretary at War on the petitions of Joel Phelps and others, whose claims appear to be precluded by the resolve of Congrefsof nil, of March, 1773, and have not yet been adled upon, be referred to a committee of the whole honfe on the state of the Union, and that the re ference be the order of the day for Monday next. Mr. Ames presented the petition of Samuel Breck, and others, proprietors of the Sail-Cloth Manufactory in Bolion, praying that they may have the exclusive privilege of affixing certaiii marks to their Sail-Cloth, and that meafnres be adopted for preventing the said marks from be ing used by others—read and referred to the Se cretary of State. Agreeably to the order of the day, the house resolved itfelf into acommittee of the whole, Mr. Muhlenberg in the chair, to take into coiifidera tion the bill making compensation to widows, orphans and invalids, in certain cases. rhe committee reported progress, and are to fit again to-morrow. Adjourned. TUESDAY, November 29. Sundry petitions praying compensations, pen sions, &c. were read, and referred to the Secre tary of war. Mr. Livermore reported a biil to eftabiifh the pofl-office, and pa ft-roads in the United States— read the firft and second times, and referred to the committee of the whole House on Monday next —Ordered that the bill be printed in thein- erim Mr. Dayton presented the petition of sundry persons, refugees from Canada during the late war—read, and referred to a felecl committee, consisting of Meffis. Dayton, Bourne, (R. 1.) and Murray. A meflage was received from the Senate, by Mr. Secretary Otis, informing the House that they have palfed a bill refpeCling Consuls and Vice-Confuls. The House went into acommittee ofthe whole on the bill making coinpenfation to widows, or phans, and invalids in certain cafes—rhedifcuffi on of the bill wasfinifhed—the committee agreed to sundry amendments—they then rose and re ported.—And the House adjourned. PORTLAND, (Mafl.) Nov. 10 Tuesday ]ast arrived here the snow Eliza, Capt> Jackson, belonging to Portfniouth (N.H.) in 30 days from Cape-Francois, in Hifpaniola.—Capt. Jackson has brought back the cargo he carried out from Portsmouth, which was lumber. By Capt. Jackson we learn, thar the white in habitants are in a molt deplorablefituation. The whites do not consist of more than 3000 strong, exclufiveof Americans and others detained there by the embargo. The negroes consist of more than 30.000, and it was daily expected that they would auack the town.
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