II CONGRESS. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATtVBS. Tuesday, November 20. * Debate on the' Resolution offired by Mr. Fitz- Cmons, on the 19th, refpe&ing a Reduc tion of the Public Debt See. relumed. In Committe: tf the Whole. Mr. Laivrakce in the Chair. Mr. Baldwin said, when this motion was laid on the table, he did not feel much oppo sition to it in his own mind, particularly alter the explanation given by the mover, that it was designed merely to obtain information from the secretary of the treafurv, whether the revenues of the year would be fufficient to redeem that part of the public debt, which was by law re deemable. On attending more particularly to the expreflions, and from the turn which the l'ubje& had taken in the difcuflion, he was con vinced that it was best to strike out the latter part of the motion, which in general terms di reiied the " Secretary to report a plan for the purpose." The etprefiions were too and indefinite, and on former occasions had been used to cover much more than was generally trnderiloodat the time the referenct was made. If it is only designed on this occasion to obtain information as to fa<fts in that department, let the present general words be struck out, and let the Secretary be directed to report, whether the revenues of the year are fufficient to redeem that part ol the debt. If ic is designed that the secretary Ihould report a new revenue fyfiem, as he has repeatedly done, l«t that beexpreffed, that the house at least may understand them selves. If information on fa<fts or details in the executive department is the objeit, no one ob je<fls to it. If legislative opinions, the origina tion of a law or revenue system is intended, let it be so expressed. He observed, there was a kind of political stratagem and finefle sometimes nfed on such occasions, which experience had always proved, tended to no good. Individuals, when they intend to occupy doubtful ground, in which they are sure they should not be sup ported by the majority, intrench upon it by de grees ; at one time a motion is made on one fide of it, and the luccef* of it depends on their prov ing, that it is not on the doubtful ground— at another time they approach it in the fame manner on a different fide—and at another, on a different, till finally the whole is surrounded ; in fh# f*_ye zi'. i°V*., n — ai m'jjivnn that extreme, as they had before done on the other,, it is proved that the whole ground i« already occupied. In this way the most absurd and mischievous political doiirines have been eftabhlhed. He was not without his apprehensions that, by a few efforts more it would be found, that iome of the most import ant parts ef legislation were transferred from the present legiflaturcs to single law-givers. It had been the conllant object and ambition of indivi dual men in all parts and ages of the world ; there is no doubt but it will be as unrelentingly pursued here, unkfs controuled by those who feel themselves injured by it. It might be taken for granted, that there now were, and always would be, individuals who had no point in this progress at which the"" would stop ; that they would croud towards that extreme as far as polTible. He needed no assurance that their number in that house, or in the country, was very faiall; but they might make much trouble- He conceived it would b- of much use on f® great and pradical points in government, for the"ma jority whose minds,if thoroughly known to each other, were probably not much apart, to take an early occasion to express their definite o pinion : that the necefl'ary fails and details of office should be reported from the departments.- bat that legislative opinions, and the ftrutfure' ox laws, should be sacred to the two branches of the legislature. If one executive officer is ordered to form the laws which relate to his department, the ofti cers in the other departments mult do the fame in theits. Laws wnich relate to war, to the mi litia, &.C. mud l>e formed by the iecretary at war; those which relate to the poft-office, poft roads, and the communications between different parts of the country, mult be formed by the poft-nafh r-general; those which relate to the other fubjefi, whether fweign or domestic, mull be formed by the secretary of (late. There is no part. t the federal ground, but what is and mud be co vered by one or other of the executive departments; if they are to be called on to origi nate and form the laws which rela'e to their fe vera! * "pa'' _, icnt», two branch?* j giflature «iii remain a mere council ofreVifion to approve or rejeS, or pfonofe amendments! If the majority do not mean to keep on in their progref* to this extreme, it is time that it (hould be understood ; he h.mfelf *as anxious to under stand how far they meant to go, and what (hare of legislation was to he claimed as their own. Ke was ftrocgly pe.fuaded that it cventu . ally come to this, th» under the idea cf obtain ing hgntan.l information fro,„ rhe executive de partments, laws were not to be made there, or new legislative system. originated ; but only in formation offsets and details of office. The two L?m.7f '. fe 't tUre «"«ve laws alrtad, from rach othe-; and „ each executive officer to be con filleted in the fame relation to the legislature, that the two branches are to each other ? If they an- not, he begged to know the diftin&ion. A revenue law could not originate in the senate ; and yet had not an executive offi cer repeatedly done that in alegiflative relation to the houl'-, which even the ienate would n»t prefome to do ? He proceeded to ofcferve, in the next plae, hat this was luch a confufirn. oi all principle n government, that he was anxious to arreit ts irogrbfs before it had produced any greater ml hiefs. Though he had never much venerated he chara<fler of a mere theorist in governmert, ret, if there was a finale principle iniportftit :nough in the whole theory, which might \c onfidcred as an axiom applicable to all circuji ilances, it was that of the diitribution of the po jver.% that the legislative, executive and jud;- :iary should be kept as far as poOible separate and diftinit. The reason is mod obvious, to prevent the concert cf improper pji ons in Forming and executing the laws. If they who make the laws, could alio have the ag 'rev in the Execution of them, no doubt, fyftemi would be constructed and mightily enlarged, that their love of power, and grandeur, and pro perty might have full scope, while they were carrying them into else&. If they who are to h»ve the agency in the executiou of the laws, are admitted also to an agency ia the formation otthem, they will do the fame thing; all the agency which they have, will bedire&ed to those objedts. Not to expeJt it, not to be sure of iti taking place, is to be a granger to human na ture. Heobferved, that this part of the argu ment was in its nature, and had been set in so strong a light by those who had gone before him, he should not enlarge upon it. Mr. Baldwin derived his argument in the lad place from what had already appeared in prac tice. Though the age of the government, he said, did not yet admit of it 6 being rich in this most valuable of all knowledge ; yet, experience and praAice had already (Irongly fortified the principles which he had advanced. He then adi verted to fever* 1 instances to (hew, that wheJt the laws had received their shape and form ii the branches of the legislature, they appeared #a trial to be in general well accommodated to tie circum(lances of the different parts of the coun try : but where they had received their {haft and form out of the legislature, from the hands tf an individual, they never after could be well ad justed to th« circumflances of different parts * the country ; any alterations that had been at tempted were but ill appl : ei patch-m>rk.—Tri' a! ha J proved that they were not well shape d. for they had set very ill on the feelings of the people He particularly dwelt on the Import law as an inftanceof what he intended; that, he laid, w;n formed entirely in the house in the usual mode oflrgilhtion, eachmember had an opporttmitr of confuting it in every stage of its progrefi, and applying his information in iti proper pis,-, a? the fyftcm was forming; a hundred minr were employe I, from car to day. in tdl <si corner oTthe whole country, to forefee in.-! pr©'- vide against the evils which it would have to encounter in practice. In this way it wis made to be aseafy roflibls to every part of iiie coun try, and yet efficient Very trifling alterations had been found necessary, except great increases of the fumt demanded. A vast burden has been laid on the people, and yet it fits so easy that there has never been much complaint from any quarter. He wiflied the fame could be said with equal truth of the other part of the revenue system.'and should never ceal'e to regret that that system had *ot been originally taken up in the fame manner. 4 If, said he, that ill omened petition of some of the public creditors, taken upjuft at the heel of the fitft feflion in 1789, instead of being referred to an executive officer in general terms to report a plan, in which he tellified for hinfelf, and, he believed, many others would do the famehe hid no idea of the extent to which it has gone ; the subject had been gone into by the house—the system had been formed, and the legislative pro- Vi.ioi.i. ,r g.id by t;, o fe to whom only it longed; he believed the finances of this country would not, at this time have been so intricate a science—the public credit would have been as well supported, the debt would have been in a more simple form; so fu'itle an address to the in ercfls of individuals, and «f particular states - would not have been contrived; —the llates w»uld probably have been allowed, as they had been always before taught to exped, to finifh the execution of their fyflems for the payment of their own debts, and our fellow-citizens not now have been hunted by the hasfh and troublesome regulations of an excise system to pay them. If all this had still been found necessary, and had originated in public in the legislature, it would have been accompanied, in every stage of its pro gress by the information of the citizens, and op portunity would not have been given for that legerdemain by which so many of the honest and industrious who chance not to live within the lmoke Oi the feat of government,to be conjured out of so great a part of their hard earned pro perry. r But, It is saul, and with -,n apparent gravity, e -c» member has a, fair a chance of ,ru re ducingwhit he withes after the fyflem is report e to the house, as if he was present at the for mation of it. What fays experience on that point? „ t jTf " r ot t J ,e^ame persons who hare advo cated thole references invariablv discovered c di« ,Z 'Tf' l ° hlVe t ' W fyftems jollied or diilurbed after they are made ? He needed only hehtT.? ,hC fchemc ' the and he bank law, «, ,„ft anc „ ofhis aflenion Wer<; feeling' K P r ' dc opinion, that parental perform who may have be.-n ad work,- it» them ' feel f " r ts,eir own an vim T u"* "'""ire difficult to introduce any .mportant alteration in a system which had b« u con,pleated a:.d proportioned in i tl JtaJ 206 it wasliku uking a linibfrom a bodf'sni at tempting to add another —the difficulty of the operation commonly precludes ail attention to the fubjeft matter. Ifthe representatives of the people in all the different parts of the country are to have equal (hire in the formation of laws, they mud be pre sent where they are formed, assist in furnifhing the unformed materials, endeavour to shape them to their wifhts and the circumftanccs of their conflituentsbefore the parts become so knit to gether and compacted as to refufe to take a dif ferent -flwpe.This right was so important to eve ry part of the country he cculd not give it up. His constituents were very remote —their inter ests and wishes were therefore more out of view, and never would be attended to out only as they were brought up by their representatives; they were therefore the more dear to biin ; he felt it m»re strongly hi* duty to seek opportunity to a A for them ;he could not be denied ; —a (hare in legifiation was what they had a right to, in their name he demmded it, and ft*mld not give it up. He could not fee legislative fyllems form ed of luch vast importance to their inrereft and happinrfs, without doing all in his power to ap pear and ast in their behalf. He (bould feel himfelf to be their betrayerinfteadof their friend and representative, if he could coufent to it. If the laws were not to be formed here where he had his constitutional feat, and expected to dif chargc all the duties of his high truil, he should try to find where they were formed, and if pol fiblc, obtain access there, that he might have foine chance even as a courtier to croud forward some opinions while there was a paifibility of their doing which was denied to him as a reprefentativc, Mr. White observed, that the olijeQ of the jtntleman from Georgia appears to be a very good one; but he saw no other way ofefFe&ing it btat by arevifioa oflhelaweftabliflungthetrea- department: there are such excpiCve pow» to the head of that department, by that •law, that, without fny forced conftrn&iQn, tlic fobftance of tfre proportion, now contended for, may be fuppo&ed by that law:—he hoped, how ever, that the main obje.3 of the resolution, ma king proviGon for the redudioa <rf the public debt, Would not meet with any embarrassment. He faggefted amodification of the clause refpe6t- Ag the secretary's reporting a plan, by adding a reftricSing clause, that the plan reported should hare refpeonly to the entitling fundi of thego- Ternment, without any referrence to additional taxes for the objeA; to chcck, therefore, that torrent of abuse, which, in writings and speech es, were thrown out agaiotl the gorerament on this very fubjeft:—he hoped there wonld be no delay in thisbufinefs; but that the present Con gress would, in season, pass a law, making ef fectual provision for dimilii&ing the public debt: such a law, opce pafled, he was fully of opinion won'd be so eonfonant to the wifee* of the people, that no future legislature wanld ever do any thing to check the progress of this ialutary work. Mr. Gile> entered into a eo»<H»rji!t2 ?f s he nw tne rreattffy*(Ttparimeht. TTc controverted the opinion advanced by Mr. White, and infilled, in substance, that the pow er of the secretary of the treasury was mtrely concurrent, in reiptift to rep«rting plant, with that of the house. Mr. White rose to explain; he said he never had any idea that the house had diverted itfclf of the right of originating plant: he never conceiv ed that the secretary of the treasury had t right to propose any plans or systems to the legisla ture, urlefs he was called upon to do it. Mr. Murray, in a few remarks, delivered C milarfentiments. Mr. Gerry recurred to the law: he said it was evidently made the duty of the secretary of the treasury to prepare plans for the promoting of the revenue; and that when the house called on him for his plans, or informatioa, if he was not then prepared, it would be indicative of want of capacity, or remifsnefi in duty : but, he «b ---ferved, it by no means followed from this, that the conflruition of the law, given by the gentle man from Virginia, is ju!t: the house hat not delegated one particle of its legillatlve power; it reserves to itfelf, the full right to call for plans and information; or to refrain from calling for ei ther, and when the information is received, it is entirely at the disposal of the house. Mr. Merctr and Mr. Page added some re marks in oppolition to the reference, and then the quell ion for linking outfacing taken, pafled in the negative. THURSDAY, November 22. In coimnit'ae of the whole ot the bill pro viding f.ir the rejiftering and recording of Ihips or veffcls. Mr. Lawrance in the chair. Tiie hill, was cmifidered by paragraphs. Mr. Page opposed the clause which referred to ' (hip; or veflTeh caotured in war'—He moved that it should be ftruet out, as coun tenancing a fava-e practice, now exploded and la:d r ide by civiliaed nations—that it would be time enough when the UnitedSt ites flialt be so unfortunate as to (>e involved in a war, to make provision for the cafe now al- Vided to, that ro inconvenience couid arise T" Ml!* ..I'JtUi; that imTeet) it highly became the legifUture of the United States to adopt it, as they would thereby fliew their approbation of the iioeral and be nevolent sentiments now adopted by the greatest and mot enlightened nation; of Eu rope, abolishing the inhuman practice. That he fuppo'ed the tlaufe had been inferred is the bill, becau'e it was drawn before this cir cui.iftance of the benevolent eifpofition of the nations of Europe was generally known :—lie hoped therefore that his motion would be agreed to. It wn, however fame time before it was recorded, at length ATr. 1 icKer iecorded the motion, and sup ported it by argument? similar to Mr. Par,e'<; 'eniarking, that the French nation, though The qneftion ms then pat, m<f carrtoilKßß the negative without a division. ' When t'ie bill was repot-ted, Mr. newed his motion for linking outtheetnjßHl Sec. repeating nearly his former adding that as to the objection made t<i m 9 motion on account of its interfering ca<e of Tiin' of war which may be He said He felt for the United States nfceeSH a ca r e was mentioned; hefWt pre.Ted antl difpi-ited at the idea«f bIMIIMtX try beina Co perplexed by "*•'—l;~r-yi- ffjjjJ witfithe Indians, V*l V>t Mtfefcwfl forwajjttdphe capture of (hips *f war, -Imm| surely iffiiat be the ohjeit of MBTa looks to a cafe which cannot hipTmiffffi iltJ ture, rtiflaut day, it will be time emttgji M 9 some future le<;illature to consider H-r'tMU for h s par", he hoped never to fee A# toflfl* States possessed of a navy : at alle*entSjtjfifll they bad one, it would be nnnecefijaryflß make regulations refpefting their prim. Mj|9 allured the Hone he wonld not haventaMfflS his motion, if lie did rot think it hj| dpty, tlffl perfiil in his attempt to (hew the propriety JM uniting in sentiments «rd endeavors wttk wH great en'igltfened nations of tiie world, to pd9 a (top to a favags pffcdice which had beefl often a inducement to enter mte He wi fh-*d to take away every paffiUe tempflH ation to enter into a war, aad whenever country fliou'd be fa unhappy as ft be volved in one, he wished, by the iris mln|>3H proposed, to leflen the sulobtr «jf aaMtIAS ble evils attending wars. w $>inflnrrr»f fh' Ql/hrsa' n£Hi r; • ' ,-■• in tie Jfottfc of Reprefentotives of the Un'u fed States, on IVednefday Inft, on tb? mo tion of Mr. Parlter for flriling out fuck fart of the third Refolu'.ion reported by tie Committee of the whole on the Pref,tent's Speech, as refpißs a reference to the .V> Cretan of the Treasury, oa tit Redufi'un of the Public Debt. Mr. Speaker, I A M one of tliofe members dcfcribed by the gentleman from New-York, who seriously wish to pay the public debt as fact as possible, and receive thenecef fary information even from the secretary of the treasury ; but I make a material diftin&ion between seeking for informati on, and transferring the power of origi nating fyftcms. To give information of the (late of ll)e Urion, to recommend fucV bu/itc.. <m the Pi efident may judge expedent; and to exercise a limit ted negative on the !iv> ia certainly all the part urhich the con stitution authorifei the executive to act in legislation. The exilt nee of heads of department?, is authorised in the constitution, and hath been ercftcd by the ad of the legifliture 5 these departments ate the inftruinenti of \ collecting information, and repolitariesof I it, as ic respects the execution and effect of the laws ; and this information we have a right to command. This, with the more genetal and important information, which the members of this House poflels, are all that is neceflary to enable us to give the firft form and complexion to our revenue plans. To prevent the necefntf of referring the business to an executive officer, we will avail ourselves of the in formation depolited in the Sectttanei offices. , This we have unanimously affertfJ. and yet tlie gentlemen on the othe: li e of this qneftion, conllantly aigue in a " vor of receiving information, as 1 v |- were against it.—We wifli for it as mucn, and for more important purpofesthani. rv. The gentleman that tlierijj t of the Secretary's originating pbm ts im plicated irt the constitution, and eai.s-? on us to pro»e the contrary ;no uc ; thing is mentioned in the comtiuinoi It isconfeffed that it docs not appear'out, ? _-a
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