II
CONGRESS.
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATtVBS.
Tuesday, November 20. *
Debate on the' Resolution offired by Mr. Fitz-
Cmons, on the 19th, refpe&ing a Reduc
tion of the Public Debt See. relumed.
In Committe: tf the Whole.
Mr. Laivrakce in the Chair.
Mr. Baldwin said, when this motion was
laid on the table, he did not feel much oppo
sition to it in his own mind, particularly alter
the explanation given by the mover, that it was
designed merely to obtain information from the
secretary of the treafurv, whether the revenues
of the year would be fufficient to redeem that
part of the public debt, which was by law re
deemable. On attending more particularly to
the expreflions, and from the turn which the
l'ubje& had taken in the difcuflion, he was con
vinced that it was best to strike out the latter
part of the motion, which in general terms di
reiied the " Secretary to report a plan for the
purpose." The etprefiions were too
and indefinite, and on former occasions had been
used to cover much more than was generally
trnderiloodat the time the referenct was made.
If it is only designed on this occasion to obtain
information as to fa<fts in that department,
let the present general words be struck out, and
let the Secretary be directed to report, whether
the revenues of the year are fufficient to redeem
that part ol the debt. If ic is designed that the
secretary Ihould report a new revenue fyfiem,
as he has repeatedly done, l«t that beexpreffed,
that the house at least may understand them
selves. If information on fa<fts or details in the
executive department is the objeit, no one ob
je<fls to it. If legislative opinions, the origina
tion of a law or revenue system is intended, let
it be so expressed. He observed, there was a
kind of political stratagem and finefle sometimes
nfed on such occasions, which experience had
always proved, tended to no good. Individuals,
when they intend to occupy doubtful ground,
in which they are sure they should not be sup
ported by the majority, intrench upon it by de
grees ; at one time a motion is made on one fide
of it, and the luccef* of it depends on their prov
ing, that it is not on the doubtful ground—
at another time they approach it in the fame
manner on a different fide—and at another, on
a different, till finally the whole is surrounded ;
in fh# f*_ye zi'. i°V*., n —
ai m'jjivnn that extreme, as they had before
done on the other,, it is proved that the whole
ground i« already occupied. In this way the
most absurd and mischievous political doiirines
have been eftabhlhed. He was not without his
apprehensions that, by a few efforts more it
would be found, that iome of the most import
ant parts ef legislation were transferred from the
present legiflaturcs to single law-givers. It had
been the conllant object and ambition of indivi
dual men in all parts and ages of the world ;
there is no doubt but it will be as unrelentingly
pursued here, unkfs controuled by those who
feel themselves injured by it. It might be taken
for granted, that there now were, and always
would be, individuals who had no point in this
progress at which the"" would stop ; that they
would croud towards that extreme as far as
polTible.
He needed no assurance that their number
in that house, or in the country, was very
faiall; but they might make much trouble- He
conceived it would b- of much use on f® great
and pradical points in government, for the"ma
jority whose minds,if thoroughly known to each
other, were probably not much apart, to take
an early occasion to express their definite o
pinion : that the necefl'ary fails and details of
office should be reported from the departments.-
bat that legislative opinions, and the ftrutfure'
ox laws, should be sacred to the two branches of
the legislature.
If one executive officer is ordered to form the
laws which relate to his department, the ofti
cers in the other departments mult do the fame
in theits. Laws wnich relate to war, to the mi
litia, &.C. mud l>e formed by the iecretary at
war; those which relate to the poft-office, poft
roads, and the communications between different
parts of the country, mult be formed by the
poft-nafh r-general; those which relate to the
other fubjefi, whether fweign or domestic,
mull be formed by the secretary of (late. There
is no part. t the federal ground, but what is and
mud be co vered by one or other of the executive
departments; if they are to be called on to origi
nate and form the laws which rela'e to their fe
vera! * "pa'' _, icnt», two branch?* j
giflature «iii remain a mere council ofreVifion
to approve or rejeS, or pfonofe amendments!
If the majority do not mean to keep on in their
progref* to this extreme, it is time that it (hould
be understood ; he h.mfelf *as anxious to under
stand how far they meant to go, and what (hare
of legislation was to he claimed as their own.
Ke was ftrocgly pe.fuaded that it cventu .
ally come to this, th» under the idea cf obtain
ing hgntan.l information fro,„ rhe executive de
partments, laws were not to be made there, or
new legislative system. originated ; but only in
formation offsets and details of office. The two
L?m.7f '. fe 't tUre «"«ve laws alrtad,
from rach othe-; and „ each executive
officer to be con filleted in the fame relation to
the legislature, that the two branches are to each
other ? If they an- not, he begged to know the
diftin&ion. A revenue law could not originate
in the senate ; and yet had not an executive offi
cer repeatedly done that in alegiflative relation
to the houl'-, which even the ienate would n»t
prefome to do ?
He proceeded to ofcferve, in the next plae,
hat this was luch a confufirn. oi all principle n
government, that he was anxious to arreit ts
irogrbfs before it had produced any greater ml
hiefs. Though he had never much venerated
he chara<fler of a mere theorist in governmert,
ret, if there was a finale principle iniportftit
:nough in the whole theory, which might \c
onfidcred as an axiom applicable to all circuji
ilances, it was that of the diitribution of the
po jver.% that the legislative, executive and jud;-
:iary should be kept as far as poOible separate
and diftinit. The reason is mod obvious, to
prevent the concert cf improper pji ons in
Forming and executing the laws. If they who
make the laws, could alio have the ag 'rev in the
Execution of them, no doubt, fyftemi
would be constructed and mightily enlarged,
that their love of power, and grandeur, and pro
perty might have full scope, while they were
carrying them into else&. If they who are to
h»ve the agency in the executiou of the laws,
are admitted also to an agency ia the formation
otthem, they will do the fame thing; all the
agency which they have, will bedire&ed to those
objedts. Not to expeJt it, not to be sure of iti
taking place, is to be a granger to human na
ture. Heobferved, that this part of the argu
ment was in its nature, and had been set in so
strong a light by those who had gone before him,
he should not enlarge upon it.
Mr. Baldwin derived his argument in the lad
place from what had already appeared in prac
tice. Though the age of the government, he
said, did not yet admit of it 6 being rich in this
most valuable of all knowledge ; yet, experience
and praAice had already (Irongly fortified the
principles which he had advanced. He then adi
verted to fever* 1 instances to (hew, that wheJt
the laws had received their shape and form ii
the branches of the legislature, they appeared #a
trial to be in general well accommodated to tie
circum(lances of the different parts of the coun
try : but where they had received their {haft
and form out of the legislature, from the hands tf
an individual, they never after could be well ad
justed to th« circumflances of different parts *
the country ; any alterations that had been at
tempted were but ill appl : ei patch-m>rk.—Tri'
a! ha J proved that they were not well shape d.
for they had set very ill on the feelings of the
people
He particularly dwelt on the Import law as an
inftanceof what he intended; that, he laid, w;n
formed entirely in the house in the usual mode
oflrgilhtion, eachmember had an opporttmitr
of confuting it in every stage of its progrefi,
and applying his information in iti proper pis,-,
a? the fyftcm was forming; a hundred minr
were employe I, from car to day. in tdl <si
corner oTthe whole country, to forefee in.-! pr©'-
vide against the evils which it would have to
encounter in practice. In this way it wis made
to be aseafy roflibls to every part of iiie coun
try, and yet efficient Very trifling alterations
had been found necessary, except great increases
of the fumt demanded. A vast burden has been
laid on the people, and yet it fits so easy that
there has never been much complaint from any
quarter.
He wiflied the fame could be said with equal
truth of the other part of the revenue system.'and
should never ceal'e to regret that that system had
*ot been originally taken up in the fame manner. 4
If, said he, that ill omened petition of some of the
public creditors, taken upjuft at the heel of the
fitft feflion in 1789, instead of being referred to
an executive officer in general terms to report a
plan, in which he tellified for hinfelf, and, he
believed, many others would do the famehe
hid no idea of the extent to which it has gone ;
the subject had been gone into by the house—the
system had been formed, and the legislative pro-
Vi.ioi.i. ,r g.id by t;, o fe to whom only it
longed; he believed the finances of this country
would not, at this time have been so intricate a
science—the public credit would have been as
well supported, the debt would have been in a
more simple form; so fu'itle an address to the in
ercfls of individuals, and «f particular states -
would not have been contrived; —the llates
w»uld probably have been allowed, as they had
been always before taught to exped, to finifh
the execution of their fyflems for the payment of
their own debts, and our fellow-citizens not now
have been hunted by the hasfh and troublesome
regulations of an excise system to pay them. If
all this had still been found necessary, and had
originated in public in the legislature, it would
have been accompanied, in every stage of its pro
gress by the information of the citizens, and op
portunity would not have been given for that
legerdemain by which so many of the honest and
industrious who chance not to live within the
lmoke Oi the feat of government,to be conjured
out of so great a part of their hard earned pro
perry. r
But, It is saul, and with -,n apparent gravity,
e -c» member has a, fair a chance of ,ru re
ducingwhit he withes after the fyflem is report
e to the house, as if he was present at the for
mation of it. What fays experience on that point?
„ t jTf " r ot t J ,e^ame persons who hare advo
cated thole references invariablv discovered c
di« ,Z 'Tf' l ° hlVe t ' W fyftems jollied or
diilurbed after they are made ? He needed only
hehtT.? ,hC fchemc ' the and
he bank law, «, ,„ft anc „ ofhis aflenion Wer<;
feeling' K P r ' dc opinion, that parental
perform who may have be.-n ad
work,- it» them ' feel f " r ts,eir own
an vim T u"* "'""ire difficult to introduce
any .mportant alteration in a system which had
b« u con,pleated a:.d proportioned in i tl JtaJ
206
it wasliku uking a linibfrom a bodf'sni at
tempting to add another —the difficulty of the
operation commonly precludes ail attention to
the fubjeft matter.
Ifthe representatives of the people in all the
different parts of the country are to have equal
(hire in the formation of laws, they mud be pre
sent where they are formed, assist in furnifhing
the unformed materials, endeavour to shape them
to their wifhts and the circumftanccs of their
conflituentsbefore the parts become so knit to
gether and compacted as to refufe to take a dif
ferent -flwpe.This right was so important to eve
ry part of the country he cculd not give it up.
His constituents were very remote —their inter
ests and wishes were therefore more out of view,
and never would be attended to out only as they
were brought up by their representatives; they
were therefore the more dear to biin ; he felt it
m»re strongly hi* duty to seek opportunity to
a A for them ;he could not be denied ; —a (hare
in legifiation was what they had a right to, in
their name he demmded it, and ft*mld not give
it up. He could not fee legislative fyllems form
ed of luch vast importance to their inrereft and
happinrfs, without doing all in his power to ap
pear and ast in their behalf. He (bould feel
himfelf to be their betrayerinfteadof their friend
and representative, if he could coufent to it. If
the laws were not to be formed here where he
had his constitutional feat, and expected to dif
chargc all the duties of his high truil, he should
try to find where they were formed, and if pol
fiblc, obtain access there, that he might have
foine chance even as a courtier to croud forward
some opinions while there was a paifibility of
their doing which was denied to him as a
reprefentativc,
Mr. White observed, that the olijeQ of the
jtntleman from Georgia appears to be a very
good one; but he saw no other way ofefFe&ing
it btat by arevifioa oflhelaweftabliflungthetrea-
department: there are such excpiCve pow»
to the head of that department, by that
•law, that, without fny forced conftrn&iQn, tlic
fobftance of tfre proportion, now contended for,
may be fuppo&ed by that law:—he hoped, how
ever, that the main obje.3 of the resolution, ma
king proviGon for the redudioa <rf the public
debt, Would not meet with any embarrassment.
He faggefted amodification of the clause refpe6t-
Ag the secretary's reporting a plan, by adding a
reftricSing clause, that the plan reported should
hare refpeonly to the entitling fundi of thego-
Ternment, without any referrence to additional
taxes for the objeA; to chcck, therefore, that
torrent of abuse, which, in writings and speech
es, were thrown out agaiotl the gorerament on
this very fubjeft:—he hoped there wonld be no
delay in thisbufinefs; but that the present Con
gress would, in season, pass a law, making ef
fectual provision for dimilii&ing the public debt:
such a law, opce pafled, he was fully of opinion
won'd be so eonfonant to the wifee* of the
people, that no future legislature wanld ever do
any thing to check the progress of this ialutary
work.
Mr. Gile> entered into a eo»<H»rji!t2 ?f s he
nw tne rreattffy*(Ttparimeht. TTc
controverted the opinion advanced by Mr.
White, and infilled, in substance, that the pow
er of the secretary of the treasury was mtrely
concurrent, in reiptift to rep«rting plant, with
that of the house.
Mr. White rose to explain; he said he never
had any idea that the house had diverted itfclf of
the right of originating plant: he never conceiv
ed that the secretary of the treasury had t right
to propose any plans or systems to the legisla
ture, urlefs he was called upon to do it.
Mr. Murray, in a few remarks, delivered C
milarfentiments.
Mr. Gerry recurred to the law: he said it was
evidently made the duty of the secretary of the
treasury to prepare plans for the promoting of
the revenue; and that when the house called on
him for his plans, or informatioa, if he was not
then prepared, it would be indicative of want
of capacity, or remifsnefi in duty : but, he «b
---ferved, it by no means followed from this, that
the conflruition of the law, given by the gentle
man from Virginia, is ju!t: the house hat not
delegated one particle of its legillatlve power;
it reserves to itfelf, the full right to call for plans
and information; or to refrain from calling for ei
ther, and when the information is received, it is
entirely at the disposal of the house.
Mr. Merctr and Mr. Page added some re
marks in oppolition to the reference, and then
the quell ion for linking outfacing taken, pafled
in the negative.
THURSDAY, November 22.
In coimnit'ae of the whole ot the bill pro
viding f.ir the rejiftering and recording of
Ihips or veffcls. Mr. Lawrance in the chair.
Tiie hill, was cmifidered by paragraphs.
Mr. Page opposed the clause which referred
to ' (hip; or veflTeh caotured in war'—He
moved that it should be ftruet out, as coun
tenancing a fava-e practice, now exploded
and la:d r ide by civiliaed nations—that it
would be time enough when the UnitedSt ites
flialt be so unfortunate as to (>e involved in a
war, to make provision for the cafe now al-
Vided to, that ro inconvenience couid arise
T" Ml!* ..I'JtUi; that imTeet) it
highly became the legifUture of the United
States to adopt it, as they would thereby
fliew their approbation of the iioeral and be
nevolent sentiments now adopted by the
greatest and mot enlightened nation; of Eu
rope, abolishing the inhuman practice. That
he fuppo'ed the tlaufe had been inferred is
the bill, becau'e it was drawn before this cir
cui.iftance of the benevolent eifpofition of the
nations of Europe was generally known :—lie
hoped therefore that his motion would be
agreed to. It wn, however fame time before
it was recorded, at length
ATr. 1 icKer iecorded the motion, and sup
ported it by argument? similar to Mr. Par,e'<;
'eniarking, that the French nation, though
The qneftion ms then pat, m<f carrtoilKßß
the negative without a division. '
When t'ie bill was repot-ted, Mr.
newed his motion for linking outtheetnjßHl
Sec. repeating nearly his former
adding that as to the objection made t<i m 9
motion on account of its interfering
ca<e of Tiin' of war which may be
He said He felt for the United States nfceeSH
a ca r e was mentioned; hefWt
pre.Ted antl difpi-ited at the idea«f bIMIIMtX
try beina Co perplexed by "*•'—l;~r-yi- ffjjjJ
witfithe Indians, V*l V>t Mtfefcwfl
forwajjttdphe capture of (hips *f war, -Imm|
surely iffiiat be the ohjeit of MBTa
looks to a cafe which cannot hipTmiffffi iltJ
ture, rtiflaut day, it will be time emttgji M 9
some future le<;illature to consider H-r'tMU
for h s par", he hoped never to fee A# toflfl*
States possessed of a navy : at alle*entSjtjfifll
they bad one, it would be nnnecefijaryflß
make regulations refpefting their prim. Mj|9
allured the Hone he wonld not haventaMfflS
his motion, if lie did rot think it hj| dpty, tlffl
perfiil in his attempt to (hew the propriety JM
uniting in sentiments «rd endeavors wttk wH
great en'igltfened nations of tiie world, to pd9
a (top to a favags pffcdice which had beefl
often a inducement to enter mte
He wi fh-*d to take away every paffiUe tempflH
ation to enter into a war, aad whenever
country fliou'd be fa unhappy as ft be
volved in one, he wished, by the iris mln|>3H
proposed, to leflen the sulobtr «jf aaMtIAS
ble evils attending wars. w
$>inflnrrr»f fh' Ql/hrsa' n£Hi r; • ' ,-■•
in tie Jfottfc of Reprefentotives of the Un'u
fed States, on IVednefday Inft, on tb? mo
tion of Mr. Parlter for flriling out fuck
fart of the third Refolu'.ion reported by tie
Committee of the whole on the Pref,tent's
Speech, as refpißs a reference to the .V>
Cretan of the Treasury, oa tit Redufi'un
of the Public Debt.
Mr. Speaker,
I A M one of tliofe members dcfcribed
by the gentleman from New-York,
who seriously wish to pay the public debt
as fact as possible, and receive thenecef
fary information even from the secretary
of the treasury ; but I make a material
diftin&ion between seeking for informati
on, and transferring the power of origi
nating fyftcms.
To give information of the (late of ll)e
Urion, to recommend fucV bu/itc.. <m
the Pi efident may judge expedent; and
to exercise a limit ted negative on the !iv>
ia certainly all the part urhich the con
stitution authorifei the executive to act
in legislation.
The exilt nee of heads of department?,
is authorised in the constitution, and hath
been ercftcd by the ad of the legifliture 5
these departments ate the inftruinenti of \
collecting information, and repolitariesof I
it, as ic respects the execution and effect
of the laws ; and this information we have
a right to command. This, with the
more genetal and important information,
which the members of this House poflels,
are all that is neceflary to enable us to
give the firft form and complexion to our
revenue plans. To prevent the necefntf
of referring the business to an executive
officer, we will avail ourselves of the in
formation depolited in the Sectttanei
offices. ,
This we have unanimously affertfJ.
and yet tlie gentlemen on the othe: li e
of this qneftion, conllantly aigue in a "
vor of receiving information, as 1 v |-
were against it.—We wifli for it as mucn,
and for more important purpofesthani. rv.
The gentleman that tlierijj t
of the Secretary's originating pbm ts im
plicated irt the constitution, and eai.s-?
on us to pro»e the contrary ;no uc ;
thing is mentioned in the comtiuinoi
It isconfeffed that it docs not appear'out, ?
_-a