which money flowed j nto thetreafnry—how that money was applied—under what antbority, and to enquire at different times what balance actual ly remained in the treasury. This he conceived could be(t be done by appointing a committee periodically to examine the books of the Trea su rer, fee what balance appeared on the facc of them, and enquire whether that balance was re ajly in the treafurj' He mentioned the practice of the former Con gtefs to appoint four committees to infpeift the operations of the four departments under them. These departments, he observed, however, now belonged more to the executive ; but Hill as the i eprelcntatives were by the conffitution, made the guardians of the public money, they had a right and it was their dnty to infpcdt the opera tions of the treasury department. This light could not be conveniently exercised, in liis opi nion, by the whole body, but fhouldby a detach ment from it who would report the neceflary in formation. This mode of proceeding wasufual, —he inflanced the practice of the Britifii Honfe of Commons, and of several Hate legislatures. Even if these enquiries procured no more infor mation than was obtained by means of reports from the different officers ofgovernment, yet be ing made by the immediate representatives of the people they would give more fatisfaiftion. So far as it was tifeful to afcertaiu the real ba lance in the treasury, so far these periodical com mittees would be of the firft utility. A queftiou aro<e, whether the progress of the bill before the committee fiiould be flopped t'l make those en quiries, or whether it should be fuftered to goon, on the supposition that all was right. He wiih ed the proper regulations on this fubjeifl fettled, as Handing regulations, and to be adopted before any idea of their necelfity should arise from sus picious circumftnnces. Mr. Lawrance wilhed to proceed in the bill as far as the information already in the pofleffion of the House would carry them. ,Mr\ Gerry made some observations to (how that acc&mits i'rom the trea(Wy could never give the information wanted—they generally stated Turns of,money paid to individuals, without mention of particular,objetfVs to which they were meant to be applied. This was a favorable opportuni ty. he-ohferyed, to eftabiiih some fuc'i regulati ons as were contemplated by me' ioe " s ~ O-uv nflS. cers have and deserve the ci'lidence of the peo ple ;—it would be too l<> ce t0 attempt to make those regulations when there were reafotis for suspicions, the influence of fufpec r ted officers ■would be exerted to oppose therrr, Some further remarks were made by . MeUVs. Baldwin, Giles, and Fitzfimons, after which the question was put, and the committee rose to fit again. TUESDAY, December 6 IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE. On the Pojl-Office Bill. Mr. Sedgwick moved to strike ont all that clause which delignated the roads and toinfert, instead thereof, rhefe words, " by such route, as the President of the United States Jhall, frotn time to time, cause It be eflablijhed." It had appeared, he said, co be the fenfeof the House, when this fubjeot was formerly under coniiderdtion, that the demarcation of the par ticular roads should be entrusted to the execu tive :—the only difference had been with refpecft to the mode of expression ; but the effeift was ffill to have been the fame ; fotne gentlemen thinking it bell to leave the details of this bu siness entirely to the fupreirie executive, orhers wifiling to name the poftmafte'ii-general. The members ot the house, he observed", could not be ftippofed to possess every information, that might be requilite, on this fubjeJi ; and their opinions were liable to be bialled by local interefls : he had ever considered it as highly incumbent on the house to give the people every poflible informa tion on public concerns :—but in this, as in eve ry other fubjec'i, he thought it fufficientthat the house should eftabliih the principle, and then leave it to the executive to carry it into effect. Mr. Livermore \cbferved, that the legislative body being empowered by the conftiru;ion << to establish poll-offices and-p'oft. roads" it is as clear ly their dnty to designate the roads, as to efta blifli the offices ; and he .did not think they could with proptietjydelegaie that power, which they were themselves/ appointed to exercile : — some gentlemen, h<f knew, were of opinion, that the biifinefs of the United States conld be better tranfafied by a single person, than by ma ny ; but this was not the intention of the Con ftitutton but that, it was provided, thatthe government Ihould be adminillered by represen tatives, of the people's choice ; Co that every man, who has the right of voting, (hall be in lonie meafnre concerned in making every law for the United States—The eftablillimet.tof pofl roads heconfidered as a very important objetfl ; but he did not wish to fee them so diffufed, as to become a heavy charge where the advantage re fairing from them would be bnt fmn!l ; nor on the other hand, for the lake of bringing a reve nue into the treasury, consent to straiten them foas to check the progress of information. If the pott-office were to be regulated by the will of a single person, the dissemination of in telligence might be aad the people kept entirely in the dark with refped: to the tranfadions of government , —orthe post matter, if veiled with the whole power, might branch out the office to i'uch a degree, as to make them prt>ve a heavy burden ta the United States.—in many instances, the exptnfe is productive of a benefit fufficient to counterbalance it : in others, no public benefit ante? ; . but some individuals reap a private advantage from the institution, whilst it is injurious to others.—The most mate rial point in his opinion, was to determine the road itfelf if the house gave up that, they might as well leave all thereit of the business to the discretion of the pott-matter, and permit him to fettle the rates of pottage, and every other particular relative to the pott-office, by faying at once " there shall be a pod-matter general, who (hall have the whole government of the pott-of fice, under fnch regulations, as he, from time to time, shall be pleased to enai't. Mr. Sedgwick felt liimfelf by 110 means dispo sed to resign all the bofmefs of the House to the President, or to any one else ; but he thought that the executive part of the bufmels ouglit to be left to executive officers :—he did not, for his part, know the particular circuinftances of population, geography, ire. which had been ta. ken into the calculation by the feiecl committee, when they pointed nut the roads delineated in the bill ; but he would ask, whether they under stood the fubje»si so tho'oughiy, as the executive officer would, who beitg refponlib'e to the peo ple for the proper difciarge ot the trult reposed in him, mil ft tile his utnoft diligence in order to a fatisfartory execution of the delegated power? —As to the conftitutioaality of this delegation, it was admitted by the Committee themselves, who brought in the bill :—for if the power was altogether indelegable, no part of it could be delegated ; and if a pare of it could, he law no rea/on why the whole could not :—the second 'feiflion vvas as unconstitutional asthefirfi: ; for it is there laid, that " it shall be lawful for the post-matter-general to eflablilh l'uch other roads «is poil-roads. « to lym seem rieceilaty." Congrels, he otfeffrved, are authoiifed not on ly to ettablifli poft-offic«rand polt-roads, but also to borrow money :—But is it nnderiiood thai Congress are to go in a body, to borrow ever*' Turn ihat may be recpiifite ? is it not ratner j|l#ir. office to determine the principle on wltic* the buflnefs is to be conducted; and del.gate the power of carrying their, refoH."ei*into execu tion ? They are also cmpcwcmsJ tf coiff money; and if no part of their he did not know but they to turn coiners, and work in the mint :—nay they nuift even act the part of eJHkfipfcners, in punching .piracies committed on seas.— In the delegation of power, the wh«le purpose, in his opinion, is answered, when me rules, by which the business is to be point ed out by law :—nor could hedifcover anything in the constitution, to restrict the house froui adopting this mode of conducting bufinels. Mr. Hartley.—l cannot agree with the gentle man from Mafiachufetts, that as often as thisbu finefs had been agitated, there had been a majo rity in the house in favor of leaving it to the ex ecutive to designate the post-roads—Nay, so far as my recolleiftion (which is perhaps not so good as that gentleman's) serves me, we uniformly have had a majority for Congress to point out the post-roads. The Constitution seems to have intended that we {hotild exercile all the powers respecting the 'eftabli/hing post-roads we are capable of, but the gentleman fays we are not competent to this ;duty—that it must be entrusted to the executive. Sir, In many questions, concerning the pro perty or geography of the United States, we had full information on this floor from every quarter. The people's interests and circumstances have been known, however diltinJtly or differently situated. On tile fubjedl of the poft-officc there has been much discussion—almost the whole of the roads here stated, have appeared in bills before, and though the gentleman (who made the motion for (Inking out) may not perfectly nnderftaird all the roads, yet ifhe will be so good as to attend to the gentlemen who represent the different parts of the Union, he ought to be fatisfied. Unless they are prejudiced they can certainly give the best information. If it was leu to the President or Poft-MafVer- General, neither is acquainted with all the roads contemplated, they niult depend in a gr#at de gree upon the inforiv.ation others. We reprelent the people, we are conflitution ally vested with the power of determining upon the eflrablifhmenj; of pail-roads, and as I under stand at pre lent, ought not to delegate the pow er to any other person. 258 A general podr-officc is intended to be establish ed by the bill, and the collection of tlie reverse is put under the fuperintendance of a Poll-Mas ter-General, the minutiae is submitted to hir.i I (hould imagine there ought to be a limitation of the law in point of time, fay three, four or five years—when we come to the proper place a motion to thatpurpofe may be made. No one in the United States has a orearer ref peei for the President than myfelf, and I hold that the several departments are filled with ~er> tleiufn of the firlt abilities and fitnefs, but we are not to confine ourselves to a view of the mo ment—this bill has the complexion of a perpetual law ; we mini have some regard to consequences. If the amendment takes place the office as we'll as revenue will be thrown into [he power ofthe executive, who may iucreafe the roads and offices as far as the revenues go. The revenue of the pod office is at present not great, but if proper feeds are now sown ic may hereafter be productive. In Great Britain much has been obtained from the po!l-o(Iice, and inoitofthe European nations count upon it as a considerable branch of reve- mie Will ic be prudent for us to grant this power to the executive in the latitude conrended.for— we mil ft not suppose that this country will always remain incorrupt, we fliall lhare the fateofothe-r nations. Through the medium of the poft-ofiice a weighty influence may be obtained by the executive this is guarded against in England by prohibiting of ficers in the poll-office department from inter fering at elections. There is no such guard or caution in the present bill. By the amendment we are unnecefiarily part ing with our revenues, and throwing an impro per balance into the executive scale, and which our confticucnts do nor expetfl from us. The Senate heretofore have disagreed with us, but if they will take the fame pains w'e have, the means of information is within their reach — upon a review they may probably change their l'cntiments. This is a law of experiment, let us try it'a' few years—if upon experience we find mirfelves incompetent to the duty, we mud (if the condi tmion will admir_) grant the power to the exe cutive, or if the conflitution will not allow fubinit the article for amendment hi a constitutional way. lam against the amend -IOTIU. '■Mr. if. Bourne was 111 favor of the amend ment, wßich hg thought both expedient and con liituticuial.—i» freaking of pofl-officts andpojt roads, thl;. conftltution, he observed, fpenks in general terms, as it-does of a mint, excises, &c. i-c.—Jo palling the excise law, the house, not thinking themlelves pofleffed of fufflcient infor ination, empowered the President to mark out the diUriels and surveys : and if they had aright to delegate such power to the executive, the fur ther delegation of the power of marking out the roads for the conveyance of the mail, could hardly be thought dangerous : the constitution meant no more than that Congress should poftefs the exclusive right of doing that, by themselves, or by any other person, which amounts to the fame thing : the business he thought much more likely to.be well executed by the President, or the Poft-Mafter-GeneraJ, than by Congress. Ke had himfelf been of the committee who framed the bill ; but eould not tell whether the roads, marked outinir, were better than ex cept so far as relates to the State repre sents ; and he imagined the other of the committee were in a similar predicament : The President, l;e observed, having opportuni ties of obtaining information from the different members of the house, from the Post-Master-Ge neral, and from others, will be more competent to determine the proper road : it will be occa sionally neceflary to change the route, and lay out new roads : and he could fee no inconveni ence from entrufiing either the President or the Pofl-Malter-General with the neceflary powers for these purpofer, :—at all events, the house could guard againlV any apprehended danger, by the insertion of such a claufeas had been pro posed [by Mr. Hartley] limiting the operation of the bill to three, four or five years : at the expi ration of that term the power would revert to Congress, and they might then retain the exer cise of it in their own hands, if they found that any improper use had been made of it. Mr. White made several observations on the the expediency and constitutionality of the mea sure. No individual, he said, could poflefs an equal f,lare of information with that House on the fubjecft of thegeography of the United States. He disapproved of the amendment for many other reaf'ons, and particularly its approximat ing to the cuflom of England. Such advances towards monarchy, if not checked in season, he was apprehensive would tend to unhinge the pre sent government. If this government retains its present republican form, it will be owing to the members of this House. It is easy to fee what
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