either fettle the number of the repreTentative body, as it now stands, or reduce it, or eftablilh it at one hundred, perhaps they might, before the end of the fellioil, be obliged to repeal their adt ; as they would be bound by theamendinent, as soon as it is ratified by a (alßcient number of States. If gentlemen thought it probable that the proposed amendment would be ratified by the fevernl Mates, they ought already to consider it as a rule for their conduct, and be retrained by it, from giving less than one i for thirty thbufand inhabitants, rit'ter the repre sentation amounts to onehmidreil, Congress will, do doubt, have a right to fix it there, until it is encreafed by the ratio of one to forty thousand : but that isa power, which, he piefutued, Con gress will not exercile ; but that they then will eitablifh fonie ratio, by which the. encreafe of representation shall keep pace with the encreafe of population, until the lioufe confilts of two hundred members. ' Mr. Boudinot was convinced of the propriety of striking out the Word " thirty." The House ought to consider what would be an adequate number, fordoing the bufipefs of the union : and that number ous>ht nor to be exceeded, ex cept to unfwer some very valuable purpose. Bu siness would proceed with difficulty, if the re presentation was so numerous, as it would be come by the ratio of one ta thirty thousand. ihe present representation of the United States is in a ratio very different from that of one to thirty thousand ; and yet he thought it fully adequate. From a rough calculation, he said, that the ra tio ol" thirty thousand would produce one hun dred and thirteen members; thirty-fivethoufand would give ninety-seven ; and forty thousand ■would produce eighty-one. If the number once fettled was to reft there, he would not be over anxious to oppose the encreafe : but if gentle men would take into view the encreafe consequent on the next enumeration, they would find that the number must by far exceed the due bounds. The encreafe of expence had been mentioned. He thought it would greatly exceed the calcula tion of the gentleman, and, for his part, although he was willing to tax the people for the neces sary purposes of government, yet he would ne ver consent to fubjeifl them to unnecefl'ary hut dens. Every man must fee, that if the number was doubled, it would take aim of! double the time to do the bufinels, as every member would have an equal right to deliver his feiuiinents, and thus protratl their deliberations. He thought the people of the United States svould be duly repfefented, and to their entire atisfaiftion, if the ratio was let higher than thir ty thousand ; nor could he imagine that such an exaift proportion, between the representatives and the reprefen'ted. was at all rcquifhe to se cure their liberties, or to do the neceliary busi ness of government. This indeed might be the cafe, if the power, vested in Congress, was pro portionate to their number : but since the House would poflefs the fame powers, whether it con fided of a greater or a smaller number, he tho't the people equally fecvire in either cafe. The ratio of thirty-five thousand, which would pro duce ninety-seven members, would, in his opin ion, be a ver) proper one. If however the peo ple should think otherwise, they had it in their power to correct the uftllake, by ratifying the proposed amendment. Their not having as yet ratified it, was to him an argument that they thought :he ratio too low ; or at lealt that they considered the question as doubtful. Some of the States, he oblerved, have postponed the con ftderation of the amendment ; and eight only have as yet agreed to it. On the whole the house might fafely adopt the ratio of one to thirty-five thousand ; for that the encreafing po pulation of the United States would ever supply a representation fufficieiuly numerous to answer every good purpose. Mr. Clarke observed that his objection was not merely 011 account of the pay of the members, but an encreafe in the representation would bring an additional expense on the people, by encreaf ingthe number of public offices, as alinofl every mail would wifli to fee his friend provided for. The liberties of America, could be in no danger from the present ratio of representation. The doors of the House ai e open, and t lie people know what their representatives are doing. Mr. Steele was in favor of the motion for ftrik jng out thirty. In difculTing the important fub je<st before the committee, he observed that there were two enquiries to be attended to—What is the proper number to conflitute a representative body for the United States, and what ratio will leave the fewert fractions in the refpetftive states —One member to thirty thousand he conceived would give too numerous a representation ; ac cording to the present number of inhabitants it will almost double the present number ; it will divide and diminifli the refponlibility, make the House too unwieldy, retard public business, and encreafe the public expences unnecessarily—An adequate representation he thought would be comprized within a much smaller number. Gentlemen have called our attention to the House of Commons of Great-Britain, and the National Allembly of France ; but, said he, God forbid that we should draw our precedents from such examples as may lie cited from European representation. He was opposed to thirty thousand astlie ratio —ic would in fraction's throughout tlie United States, leave above three hundred and sixty-nine thousand citizens unrepresented. Thirty-five tlioufrfiul he thought the molt eligible number, as it would leave the fe>velt fractions. Some gentlemen fee.n to favor the ratio of thir ty thousand, because that number has been re commended by loine of the contentions, in their propo fed amendments to the conltitution ; but he hoped that no Hecifion would be founded on thof;: subsequent amendments—lt would be well to recollect the sentiments of gentlemen in the feverat conventions—ln many of them, they were agreed to, without any wifli or expectation that they lhould ever be taken into consideration, and therefore he thought that no argument ought to be drawn from them** Neither ought Congrcfs, said he, to be influenced by the example of the state governments —Business is so t ran failed in most of them, on accoi l.t of their numerous re presentation, that is very little permanen cy, or consistency in their systems. Too nume rous an aflembly is perpetually liable to disorder — and when that is thecafe,government becomes contemptible-—this consideration had greater weigh: with him than ail additional expenditure of a few dollars. He again objected to any example fromGreat-Britain orKrance ; their aflembltes,faid he, are too numerous and unwieldy to trar.faifl business without confnfiou—and compared with what he considered as an adequate number, aie mere mobs. WiLli respect to the proposed amendments, he laid that they have not been adopted by three fourths of" the Hates ; and from thence he infer red that they would be finally rejected. He thought the amendment respecting the ra tio of representatives, not so good as the original claul'e in the coiillitution—and laid he would not hclitate to declare that it ought never to be a dopted as a part of ir. It has been said that the voice of America is in favor of the ratio of thirty thousand ; were this the cafe, he would obey the voice of America—but he believed that the opinion of enlightened America was that forty or fifty tliqufand would not be too high a ratio —he fliould give the preference to either of ihofe numbers to thirty or thirty-five thousand, were it not on account wf-thr fraCtijns that would re main—he concluded, by faying he fnould vote for thirty-five "thousand. Mr. Laivraiice agreed that an adequate number was the great object to be attended to—but he con tended that the original motion would give this number more completely than alarger ratio—and it ought to be considered thatjbefore the next enu meration, it will not be probably more than one to fifty thousand. As to the encreafe of expence, he observed that the great objects being accom plished, the future feiiions will be short ; besides which, the compensation of the members may be diminished—but he coufidered a necessary in crease in the expence, to be fully counterbalanc ed by affording greater security to the liberties of the people. Tlie jfirmnefs of a government depends on a strong executive—but this execu tive fhoulcl be founded on a broad bottom—and the broader the basis, the more secure is the pub lic freedom under a vigorous executive. The exigence of the Union may depend on the fullnefs of the representation.—The inequa lity in the proportional encreafe of the number of inhabitants in different (fates, ought also to be taken into consideration, —for it was very proba ble (hat in a (hort time, while fomeof tl;r ("mail er ffates had a representative for every thirty thousand, others would not have one to forty thousand- He laid he was governed by general principles, and not by any calculations of frac tional numbers— the constitution contemplates the ratio he had proposed, and therefore he hop ed the motion for striking out would not obtain. Mr. Goodhue observed, that the situation and circumttances of the government of the United States were so different from those of France or Great-Britain, that no parallel \could be drawn respecting them—Nor is there, said he, an abfo lnte finularity between this government and those of the Hate governments. The objects of legiila tion which come under the cognizance of Con gress, are but few compared with those which engage the British House of Commons r.nd the National Aflembly of France—A much larger re presentation for them, and in our Itate legisla tures is thereiore proper, than is necefiary for us in the general government.—He doubted the opi.iiori that a large representation was lef» lia ble to corruption than a ftnall one—fume fac c ts appear to confirm the former font iment.—Hedid not consider the expence as a material objection, if an encreafe of tiie number was necefiary to do ing more ample juflice, or for the greater secu rity ot the liberties of the people—bur us he tho't .his was by no means the cafe, he was in favor of fmkingout 30, in order to iiifert a larger number. 230 Mr. Barnewell agreed with *he gentleman last fpeakin* • h said he should vote for ftrikin* out thirty, in order to iubiVt t the largcft number that had been trjention d.—Mr. Bjrnevvell ' tered into an abftraft and philoCophical difcuflioa of ibe princrT of representation iri government —the leading fentimeni w,s = a large proportion of reprefentitive« was not necelDrv to ob:in' the bell obj 6ls of legillation, in exprefling the wills of the n C " pie, or to fccure the liberties iff the conflitu nt bodv—V.k' point, he observed, was to combine the greatelt portion of with a due degree of att vity—That number which' would eoni' prise a due proportion of these, would be cqmpfetent to all Uie purposes of legiflition, whether the number for which it i c ! lates is ten tiioufaud, or five hundred thousand. On this principle he was decidedly against a large nurnbei, and in favor of a one. Adv 1 ting to the Bi itilh House of Commons and-.he >f 4lI onal Alfcmbly of France, with refpett to the formir, he laid their corruption is in a great_ degree owing to their numbers to the latter, heohferved, that the National A(Tembly had acud in Ins opinion politically and wifely—they fat out with a la™- representation in conformity to the fentimems of the people at t^f tnoQient ; but on experience, finding the number too yreat tn> v have reduced it from twelve hundred to about 250. He ochcv. Ed, he said, that the general sense of the people was ogainft a lar *e representation in Congrcfs—the inconveniencies experienced from numerous bodies in the Hate legiflaturcs, has led several of ir, e Hates to lelfcn the number—He in (lanced Geergia, South-Carolina and Pennfvlvania. Mr. Baldwin Was opposed to the motion. One representative for thirty thousand appeared to him by no means a great reprefcn tation. The opinion that, of late, had been so often advanced horn the prtfs, and in public difcyflion, for reducing the repre sentative branch in government to a fniall number, he held to be lull of dangerous error. He was sensible, that the terms great and small were so merely relative in their figntfication, that itwasdit. ficult precisely to underlland each other in the use ol them. Per haps they may mOit properly, both of them, be conlidcn as ex tremes. No doubt representation, which of late feetps to be used as the character of republican government, is a,great improvement upon democracy or legifiation by the whole body of the people. He couid conceive that fc representation might be so large as to par take or the evils o( alle-mbling the whole body of the people ; but it w. s a very improbable and not a dangerous extreme : the other extreme was lull of danger. Thele observations acquire much force when applied pauiculariy to the governments of this coun try ; enfeeble the representative, part of them,and you sap the very principles of life. They stand on a different balls from the Go vernments which have gone before them, and may justly be laid to be new experiments in government; time, as yet, has fcarccly given room iojudge ofihe probable iIT ic; but this v.e may pro nounce with much certainty, let the principles of repiefcntation languish, and they have no chance of (uccefs. It had not been found pra&icable to ground representation ir the federal constitution upon any other principle than that of num bers—but extent of territory is unquestionably one of the natural < rinciples on which it rests, and would it poftiblc be regarded. One for thirty-four or thirty-five thousand may be deemed a pro per reprefentaticn in the kingdom of France, or of Great-Britain. The four millions vyhich compote the United States, compa&ly fettled where there was great fa-mends in the country, and pretty equally di^ 1 .it from a common center, would be properly rcpre fented by a smaller number than fit their present sparse fctde ment :—But still farther, the fettiement ot the United States is.a fillet stretched along the sea coait for hundred miles, comprehend ng as great a variety of climate and iutercfts as otic of the other quarters of the globe. It is difficult to conceive of' a situation which calls for a greater extension ol the principle of representation. It h<»s been said that one for thirty thousand will make tor* large and unwieldy a body : he was sensible that was a poini ilidt did not ad mit of being determined by an) toticlafive reasoning; ic was a mere matter of opinion, found judgment only is to be ulcci, tune and experience will come on and confirm or corrc£t the opi nion. In such a cafe, said he, it is wife to enquire how this has been judged of by others who have had a rcprel'cntative bodv. In France 1200 waanoi thoughttoo great a repiefcntation in form ing their national aflembly, and the number cftablifhed by their new coiiftitution for frheir slated legiflatuie, was not 250, as the member last up had llated—but if he had not been mimformed by the publications in this country, it was nearly 750. It) the kingdom of Great-Britain, 500 is not thought too great a reprcfemation; and can 113, whi-h is the grcateft number con tended fcr, be confidcrcd in this country as a huge and imparti able maf&ol repi eferttation. It had ever appeared to him to be among the marks of our youth and inexperience, that we grew wife too fudoenly He was afraid this inltantaneous wifdgm which sprung .up lo at once, and set at nought, or ifmov::d to the extreme of abfurditv and t »Hy, the deliberate and tried opinions of the moil profound and enlightened among men, in circiimltances peculiarly favorable t» hbnclt dccilion, will itfelf be left by time on that extreme. And how does this compare, he alked, with the opinion and ex perience of this country in the Hate governments ? The idea had before been called up, but in his opinion justice was by no means done to the cotnparifon. It had been said that the ftaces in gene ral had found their representation too large, and Were diminilhn ing it. Let another view be taken of the comparison ; afhtcwill not fu&er the ordinary bufmefs ot its own interh.il legislation t» be intruded to fewer rcprefentatives than from oite to two hun dred, and in some instances more, and vet in the federal govern ment they are obliged to submit to a legislation which can .nuch more lubllantiallyaffcl their happinefsand property, and perhaps they have there but a Tingle representative, or at most but fiveorftx. The slightest comparison shews that there is no manner of propor tion between them, that they are irreconcilably distorted ; surely gentlemen of the opposite opinion will noi have the effrontery ti» to draw an argument from that source for the present representation The several itatc conventions which had thought proper toam nadvert at all upon the federal Confhtution, had pretty uniformly expressed their wilh that the reprclentation should be iucieafed. The/*rifts in government, so far as he had been infoi mcc, had ge nerally given their opinion that this part was too small, and outo proportion. He was as far from venerating mere theories o. go vernment as any man, and was sensible they must adjuftthemfeives to. the times and circumstances of the people. But it would not be useless to enquire, how does this appear in praslce ? He coul fay for himfelf that it brought his own mind to the lame conc.u fion, that it was the part of the federal conftitutinn, of all others mofl defective and infeeure. Thirty-three naembers had fo rrne the house, fevenieen was a majority, and equal to the cecifion>o any question. Questions had already occurred, involving proper ty to the afnount of from fifty to eighty millions of dollars, an much of it in the hands of the most daring individuate, desperate by their speculations. He did not fay there had been any foundation for uncafy apprehensions from thatquaitcr, u he did fay, that in other countries it would be supposed to ea mofl dangerous experiment upon the paißons and iiupet.c tons of human nature.- But it had been said, and with an unexnt e affuranre, that increasing the numbers did not increase t e ecuri ty against these evils. If so, why not reduce it at once to ' nerable number thirteen, or indeed three, which would g'.ve us a areata security as the whole body of the people ? It is id tue observations onfucha point—the mind that can or ica: • ina; upon it, can scarcely be fuppoted in a fituationto be bene by r afons. • • r A rttV The federal government, it must. be admited, is i' l 2 highly seasoned with preiogative —practice lias aheady evu
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