either fettle the number of the repreTentative
body, as it now stands, or reduce it, or eftablilh
it at one hundred, perhaps they might, before
the end of the fellioil, be obliged to repeal their
adt ; as they would be bound by theamendinent,
as soon as it is ratified by a (alßcient number of
States. If gentlemen thought it probable that
the proposed amendment would be ratified by the
fevernl Mates, they ought already to consider it
as a rule for their conduct, and be retrained by
it, from giving less than one i for
thirty thbufand inhabitants, rit'ter the repre
sentation amounts to onehmidreil, Congress will,
do doubt, have a right to fix it there, until it is
encreafed by the ratio of one to forty thousand :
but that isa power, which, he piefutued, Con
gress will not exercile ; but that they then will
eitablifh fonie ratio, by which the. encreafe of
representation shall keep pace with the encreafe
of population, until the lioufe confilts of two
hundred members. '
Mr. Boudinot was convinced of the propriety
of striking out the Word " thirty." The House
ought to consider what would be an adequate
number, fordoing the bufipefs of the union :
and that number ous>ht nor to be exceeded, ex
cept to unfwer some very valuable purpose. Bu
siness would proceed with difficulty, if the re
presentation was so numerous, as it would be
come by the ratio of one ta thirty thousand. ihe
present representation of the United States is in
a ratio very different from that of one to thirty
thousand ; and yet he thought it fully adequate.
From a rough calculation, he said, that the ra
tio ol" thirty thousand would produce one hun
dred and thirteen members; thirty-fivethoufand
would give ninety-seven ; and forty thousand
■would produce eighty-one. If the number once
fettled was to reft there, he would not be over
anxious to oppose the encreafe : but if gentle
men would take into view the encreafe consequent
on the next enumeration, they would find that
the number must by far exceed the due bounds.
The encreafe of expence had been mentioned.
He thought it would greatly exceed the calcula
tion of the gentleman, and, for his part, although
he was willing to tax the people for the neces
sary purposes of government, yet he would ne
ver consent to fubjeifl them to unnecefl'ary hut
dens. Every man must fee, that if the number
was doubled, it would take aim of! double the
time to do the bufinels, as every member would
have an equal right to deliver his feiuiinents, and
thus protratl their deliberations.
He thought the people of the United States
svould be duly repfefented, and to their entire
atisfaiftion, if the ratio was let higher than thir
ty thousand ; nor could he imagine that such an
exaift proportion, between the representatives
and the reprefen'ted. was at all rcquifhe to se
cure their liberties, or to do the neceliary busi
ness of government. This indeed might be the
cafe, if the power, vested in Congress, was pro
portionate to their number : but since the House
would poflefs the fame powers, whether it con
fided of a greater or a smaller number, he tho't
the people equally fecvire in either cafe. The
ratio of thirty-five thousand, which would pro
duce ninety-seven members, would, in his opin
ion, be a ver) proper one. If however the peo
ple should think otherwise, they had it in their
power to correct the uftllake, by ratifying the
proposed amendment. Their not having as yet
ratified it, was to him an argument that they
thought :he ratio too low ; or at lealt that they
considered the question as doubtful. Some of
the States, he oblerved, have postponed the con
ftderation of the amendment ; and eight only
have as yet agreed to it. On the whole the
house might fafely adopt the ratio of one to
thirty-five thousand ; for that the encreafing po
pulation of the United States would ever supply
a representation fufficieiuly numerous to answer
every good purpose.
Mr. Clarke observed that his objection was not
merely 011 account of the pay of the members,
but an encreafe in the representation would bring
an additional expense on the people, by encreaf
ingthe number of public offices, as alinofl every
mail would wifli to fee his friend provided for.
The liberties of America, could be in no danger
from the present ratio of representation. The
doors of the House ai e open, and t lie people know
what their representatives are doing.
Mr. Steele was in favor of the motion for ftrik
jng out thirty. In difculTing the important fub
je<st before the committee, he observed that there
were two enquiries to be attended to—What is
the proper number to conflitute a representative
body for the United States, and what ratio will
leave the fewert fractions in the refpetftive states
—One member to thirty thousand he conceived
would give too numerous a representation ; ac
cording to the present number of inhabitants
it will almost double the present number ; it will
divide and diminifli the refponlibility, make the
House too unwieldy, retard public business, and
encreafe the public expences unnecessarily—An
adequate representation he thought would be
comprized within a much smaller number.
Gentlemen have called our attention to the
House of Commons of Great-Britain, and the
National Allembly of France ; but, said he, God
forbid that we should draw our precedents from
such examples as may lie cited from European
representation.
He was opposed to thirty thousand astlie ratio
—ic would in fraction's throughout tlie United
States, leave above three hundred and sixty-nine
thousand citizens unrepresented. Thirty-five
tlioufrfiul he thought the molt eligible number,
as it would leave the fe>velt fractions.
Some gentlemen fee.n to favor the ratio of thir
ty thousand, because that number has been re
commended by loine of the contentions, in their
propo fed amendments to the conltitution ; but
he hoped that no Hecifion would be founded on
thof;: subsequent amendments—lt would be well
to recollect the sentiments of gentlemen in the
feverat conventions—ln many of them, they were
agreed to, without any wifli or expectation that
they lhould ever be taken into consideration,
and therefore he thought that no argument ought
to be drawn from them** Neither ought Congrcfs,
said he, to be influenced by the example of the
state governments —Business is so t ran failed in
most of them, on accoi l.t of their numerous re
presentation, that is very little permanen
cy, or consistency in their systems. Too nume
rous an aflembly is perpetually liable to disorder
— and when that is thecafe,government becomes
contemptible-—this consideration had greater
weigh: with him than ail additional expenditure of
a few dollars. He again objected to any example
fromGreat-Britain orKrance ; their aflembltes,faid
he, are too numerous and unwieldy to trar.faifl
business without confnfiou—and compared with
what he considered as an adequate number, aie
mere mobs.
WiLli respect to the proposed amendments, he
laid that they have not been adopted by three
fourths of" the Hates ; and from thence he infer
red that they would be finally rejected.
He thought the amendment respecting the ra
tio of representatives, not so good as the original
claul'e in the coiillitution—and laid he would not
hclitate to declare that it ought never to be a
dopted as a part of ir. It has been said that the
voice of America is in favor of the ratio of thirty
thousand ; were this the cafe, he would obey
the voice of America—but he believed that the
opinion of enlightened America was that forty
or fifty tliqufand would not be too high a ratio
—he fliould give the preference to either of ihofe
numbers to thirty or thirty-five thousand, were
it not on account wf-thr fraCtijns that would re
main—he concluded, by faying he fnould vote
for thirty-five "thousand.
Mr. Laivraiice agreed that an adequate number
was the great object to be attended to—but he con
tended that the original motion would give this
number more completely than alarger ratio—and
it ought to be considered thatjbefore the next enu
meration, it will not be probably more than one
to fifty thousand. As to the encreafe of expence,
he observed that the great objects being accom
plished, the future feiiions will be short ; besides
which, the compensation of the members may be
diminished—but he coufidered a necessary in
crease in the expence, to be fully counterbalanc
ed by affording greater security to the liberties
of the people. Tlie jfirmnefs of a government
depends on a strong executive—but this execu
tive fhoulcl be founded on a broad bottom—and
the broader the basis, the more secure is the pub
lic freedom under a vigorous executive.
The exigence of the Union may depend on
the fullnefs of the representation.—The inequa
lity in the proportional encreafe of the number
of inhabitants in different (fates, ought also to be
taken into consideration, —for it was very proba
ble (hat in a (hort time, while fomeof tl;r ("mail
er ffates had a representative for every thirty
thousand, others would not have one to forty
thousand- He laid he was governed by general
principles, and not by any calculations of frac
tional numbers— the constitution contemplates
the ratio he had proposed, and therefore he hop
ed the motion for striking out would not obtain.
Mr. Goodhue observed, that the situation and
circumttances of the government of the United
States were so different from those of France or
Great-Britain, that no parallel \could be drawn
respecting them—Nor is there, said he, an abfo
lnte finularity between this government and those
of the Hate governments. The objects of legiila
tion which come under the cognizance of Con
gress, are but few compared with those which
engage the British House of Commons r.nd the
National Aflembly of France—A much larger re
presentation for them, and in our Itate legisla
tures is thereiore proper, than is necefiary for
us in the general government.—He doubted the
opi.iiori that a large representation was lef» lia
ble to corruption than a ftnall one—fume fac c ts
appear to confirm the former font iment.—Hedid
not consider the expence as a material objection,
if an encreafe of tiie number was necefiary to do
ing more ample juflice, or for the greater secu
rity ot the liberties of the people—bur us he tho't
.his was by no means the cafe, he was in favor of
fmkingout 30, in order to iiifert a larger number.
230
Mr. Barnewell agreed with *he gentleman last fpeakin* • h
said he should vote for ftrikin* out thirty, in order to iubiVt t
the largcft number that had been trjention d.—Mr. Bjrnevvell '
tered into an abftraft and philoCophical difcuflioa of ibe princrT
of representation iri government —the leading fentimeni w,s =
a large proportion of reprefentitive« was not necelDrv to ob:in'
the bell obj 6ls of legillation, in exprefling the wills of the n C "
pie, or to fccure the liberties iff the conflitu nt bodv—V.k'
point, he observed, was to combine the greatelt portion of
with a due degree of att vity—That number which' would eoni'
prise a due proportion of these, would be cqmpfetent to all Uie
purposes of legiflition, whether the number for which it i c !
lates is ten tiioufaud, or five hundred thousand. On this principle
he was decidedly against a large nurnbei, and in favor of a
one. Adv 1 ting to the Bi itilh House of Commons and-.he >f 4lI
onal Alfcmbly of France, with refpett to the formir, he laid
their corruption is in a great_ degree owing to their numbers
to the latter, heohferved, that the National A(Tembly had acud
in Ins opinion politically and wifely—they fat out with a la™-
representation in conformity to the fentimems of the people at t^f
tnoQient ; but on experience, finding the number too yreat tn> v
have reduced it from twelve hundred to about 250. He ochcv.
Ed, he said, that the general sense of the people was ogainft a lar *e
representation in Congrcfs—the inconveniencies experienced from
numerous bodies in the Hate legiflaturcs, has led several of ir, e
Hates to lelfcn the number—He in (lanced Geergia, South-Carolina
and Pennfvlvania.
Mr. Baldwin Was opposed to the motion. One representative
for thirty thousand appeared to him by no means a great reprefcn
tation. The opinion that, of late, had been so often advanced
horn the prtfs, and in public difcyflion, for reducing the repre
sentative branch in government to a fniall number, he held to be
lull of dangerous error. He was sensible, that the terms great and
small were so merely relative in their figntfication, that itwasdit.
ficult precisely to underlland each other in the use ol them. Per
haps they may mOit properly, both of them, be conlidcn as ex
tremes. No doubt representation, which of late feetps to be used
as the character of republican government, is a,great improvement
upon democracy or legifiation by the whole body of the people.
He couid conceive that fc representation might be so large as to par
take or the evils o( alle-mbling the whole body of the people ; but
it w. s a very improbable and not a dangerous extreme : the other
extreme was lull of danger. Thele observations acquire much
force when applied pauiculariy to the governments of this coun
try ; enfeeble the representative, part of them,and you sap the very
principles of life. They stand on a different balls from the Go
vernments which have gone before them, and may justly be laid
to be new experiments in government; time, as yet, has fcarccly
given room iojudge ofihe probable iIT ic; but this v.e may pro
nounce with much certainty, let the principles of repiefcntation
languish, and they have no chance of (uccefs.
It had not been found pra&icable to ground representation ir
the federal constitution upon any other principle than that of num
bers—but extent of territory is unquestionably one of the natural
< rinciples on which it rests, and would it poftiblc be regarded.
One for thirty-four or thirty-five thousand may be deemed a pro
per reprefentaticn in the kingdom of France, or of Great-Britain.
The four millions vyhich compote the United States, compa&ly
fettled where there was great fa-mends in the country, and pretty
equally di^ 1 .it from a common center, would be properly rcpre
fented by a smaller number than fit their present sparse fctde
ment :—But still farther, the fettiement ot the United States is.a
fillet stretched along the sea coait for hundred miles,
comprehend ng as great a variety of climate and iutercfts as otic
of the other quarters of the globe. It is difficult to conceive of'
a situation which calls for a greater extension ol the principle of
representation.
It h<»s been said that one for thirty thousand will make tor* large
and unwieldy a body : he was sensible that was a poini ilidt did
not ad mit of being determined by an) toticlafive reasoning; ic
was a mere matter of opinion, found judgment only is to be ulcci,
tune and experience will come on and confirm or corrc£t the opi
nion. In such a cafe, said he, it is wife to enquire how this has
been judged of by others who have had a rcprel'cntative bodv.
In France 1200 waanoi thoughttoo great a repiefcntation in form
ing their national aflembly, and the number cftablifhed by their
new coiiftitution for frheir slated legiflatuie, was not 250, as the
member last up had llated—but if he had not been mimformed
by the publications in this country, it was nearly 750.
It) the kingdom of Great-Britain, 500 is not thought too great a
reprcfemation; and can 113, whi-h is the grcateft number con
tended fcr, be confidcrcd in this country as a huge and imparti
able maf&ol repi eferttation.
It had ever appeared to him to be among the marks of
our youth and inexperience, that we grew wife too fudoenly He
was afraid this inltantaneous wifdgm which sprung .up lo at once,
and set at nought, or ifmov::d to the extreme of abfurditv and
t »Hy, the deliberate and tried opinions of the moil profound and
enlightened among men, in circiimltances peculiarly favorable t»
hbnclt dccilion, will itfelf be left by time on that extreme.
And how does this compare, he alked, with the opinion and ex
perience of this country in the Hate governments ? The idea had
before been called up, but in his opinion justice was by no means
done to the cotnparifon. It had been said that the ftaces in gene
ral had found their representation too large, and Were diminilhn
ing it. Let another view be taken of the comparison ; afhtcwill
not fu&er the ordinary bufmefs ot its own interh.il legislation t»
be intruded to fewer rcprefentatives than from oite to two hun
dred, and in some instances more, and vet in the federal govern
ment they are obliged to submit to a legislation which can .nuch
more lubllantiallyaffcl their happinefsand property, and perhaps
they have there but a Tingle representative, or at most but fiveorftx.
The slightest comparison shews that there is no manner of propor
tion between them, that they are irreconcilably distorted ; surely
gentlemen of the opposite opinion will noi have the effrontery ti»
to draw an argument from that source for
the present representation
The several itatc conventions which had thought proper toam
nadvert at all upon the federal Confhtution, had pretty uniformly
expressed their wilh that the reprclentation should be iucieafed.
The/*rifts in government, so far as he had been infoi mcc, had ge
nerally given their opinion that this part was too small, and outo
proportion. He was as far from venerating mere theories o. go
vernment as any man, and was sensible they must adjuftthemfeives
to. the times and circumstances of the people. But it would not
be useless to enquire, how does this appear in praslce ? He coul
fay for himfelf that it brought his own mind to the lame conc.u
fion, that it was the part of the federal conftitutinn, of all others
mofl defective and infeeure. Thirty-three naembers had fo rrne
the house, fevenieen was a majority, and equal to the cecifion>o
any question. Questions had already occurred, involving proper
ty to the afnount of from fifty to eighty millions of dollars, an
much of it in the hands of the most daring individuate,
desperate by their speculations. He did not fay there had been
any foundation for uncafy apprehensions from thatquaitcr, u
he did fay, that in other countries it would be supposed to ea
mofl dangerous experiment upon the paißons and iiupet.c tons
of human nature.- But it had been said, and with an unexnt e
affuranre, that increasing the numbers did not increase t e ecuri
ty against these evils. If so, why not reduce it at once to '
nerable number thirteen, or indeed three, which would g'.ve us a
areata security as the whole body of the people ? It is id
tue observations onfucha point—the mind that can or ica:
• ina; upon it, can scarcely be fuppoted in a fituationto be bene
by r afons. • • r A rttV
The federal government, it must. be admited, is i' l 2
highly seasoned with preiogative —practice lias aheady evu