lions others may have sgainft the public,t.:icfe csnnot afFe&thc va lidity of theirs ; that it ihey gain by the riik taken upon them selves, ii is but thejuft reward of the rifle ; that as they hold the public promise, they have an [undeniable demand on the public faith : that the best foundation of public credit is that adlitrence to literal engagements on which it has been e retted by the mo ft flourifhing nations : that if the new government ftiould swerve from so eflential a principle, it will be regarded by all the world as inheriting the infirmities ot the old. —Such being the interfe ring claims on the public, one of three things must be done ; ei ther pay both, rejeCt wholly one or other, or make a compp/ition between them on some principle of equity ; To pay both is per haps beyond the public faculties; and as it would far exceed the value received by the public, will not be expe&ed by the world, rtor even by the creditors themselves. To reject wholly the claims of either is equally inadmiflible. Such a fa< rifice ot tnofe who possess the written engagements, would be fatal to the proposed establishment of public credit. It would moreover punish thole who had put their trust in the public promises and resources. To make the other class the sole vittims, was an idea at which hu man nature recoiled. A composition is the only expedient that remains ; let it be liberal one in favor of the present holders; let them have the high price which has prevailed in the market; and let the residue belong to the original fufferers. This will not do perfedl justice ; but it will do more real justice, and perform more of the public faith, than any other expedient proposed. The present holders, "where they have purchased at the lowest prise of the securities, •will have a profit that cannot reasonably be complained of ; where they have purchased at a higher price,the profit will be considera ble ; and even the few who have purchased at the highest price, cannot well belofersw'th a well funded interest of fix percent. The original fufferers will not be fully indemnified ; but they will receive from their country a tribute due to their merits, if it does not intirely heal their wounds, will afiuage the pain of them. He was aware, that many plausible objections would lie against what he fuggeftcd ; some, which he forefaw, he would takefome notice of. It would be laid, that the plan was imprac ticable : should this be demonstrated he was ready to renounce it; but it did not appear to him in that light. He acknowledged that such a scale as had often been a fubjett of convcrfation, was impracticable— The discrimination proposed by him, required nothing more than a knowledge of the present holders, which would be shewn by the certificates ; and of theoriginal holder?, which the office documents would shew. It may be objected, that if the govern ment is to go beyond the literal into the equitable claims against the United States, it ought to go back to every cafe where injuflice had been done. To this the answer was obvious : The cafe in <Jueflion is not only different from others in point of magnitude and of practicability, but forces itfelf on the attention of the com mittee a? necefTarily involved in the business before them. It may be objected, that public credit will fuffer, especially abroad: He thought this danger would be effe&ually obviated by the honefly and disinterestedness of the governnynt displayed in the measure, bv a continuance of the pundual discharge of foreign intercft, by the full provision to be made for the whole foreign debt, and the equal pun&uality he hoped to fee in the future payments on the oomeftic debts. Hetrufted also, that all future loans would be founded on a previous establishment of adequate funds ; and that « situation like the present would be thereby rendered impossible. He could not but regard the present cafe as so extraordinary, m many refpc&s, that the ordinary maxims were not ftriftly ap plicable to it. The flufryations of stock in Europe, so often le lerred to. bore no cdmparifon with those in the United States. The former never exceeded ,50, 60, or 70 per cent : can it be said, that because a government thought this evil infutficient to juflifv an interference, it would view in the fame light a fluctuation amounting to 7 or 800 per c?nt. ? He was of opinion, that were Great Britain, Holland, or any other country, to fund its debt precisely in the situation of the American debt, some equitable interference of the government ■would take place. The South Sea scheme, in which a change a mountingto 1000 per cent. happened in the value of flock, is "well known to have produced an interference, and without any in jury whatever to the subsequent credit of the nation. It was true that, in many refpefts, the cafe differed from that of the United States ; but, in other refpe&s there was a degree of fimi- Jitude which warranted the conjecture. It may be objected, that such a provision as he proposed would exceed the public ability : He did not tinnk the public unable to discharge honorably all its engagemenr.% or that it would be unwilling, if the appropriations should be fatisfa&ory. He regretted, as much as any member, the unavoidable weightand duration of the burdens to be imposed ; having never been a proselyte to the doctrine that public debts are public benefits. He confiderea them, on the contrary, as evils which ought to be removed as fail as honor and iuftice would permit, and should heartily join in the means neceflary for that purpose. He concluded with delating his opinion, that if any cafe were ro happen among individuals, bearing an analogy to that of the public, a court of equity would interpose for its rcdrefs ; or that if a tribunal existed on earth, by which nations could be compelled to do right.the United States would be compelled to do something not difiimilar in its principles to what he contended for. FRIDAY, FERRUARY 12. rf tic Delate on the queflwn for the Memorials on :\r Mr. Ti'cker said, that he was forrv there appeared to be To f reat a majority of the House in favor of giving the Memorial a second reading as lie conceived it to be foglaringan interference with the Confiitution. that he had hoped the House would not have ,*;iven so much countenance to a request so improper in itfelf.— He was sorry that the society had discovered so little prudence in their memorial, as to wish that Congress (hould intermeddle in the interna! regulations of the parti cular States. He was forrv that another Memorial on the fubjrft, signed bv a pcrfon who ought to have known the Constitution better, had been offered to the House. He hoped the petition would not be commited, as it would operate direttly againftthe interest of those it was designed to be nefit : This is a business that may be attended with themoft serious consequences : It may end in a subversion of the government, be ing a di reft attack on the rights and property of the Southern States.' He then enquired what fatisfaftion was to be made to the proprietors of Slaves : He believed it was not in the power of the States, to make indemnification for the loss that would attend their emancipation : He leprobated the 'interposition of the socie ty, and denied that they poficfied any more humanity than other denominations. Mr. Seney replied to Mr. Tucker, and defircd the gentleman to point out any part of the memorial which proposed that the legi slature (hould infringe the Constitution. For his part he heard nothing read that had such a tendency : Its only object was, that Congress (hould exert their constitutional authority to abate the horrors of slavery so far as they could. He hoped the petition ■would be committed—indeed heconfidered that all altercation on the fubjeft of commitmentwas at an end. astheHoufe had efienti all v determined, that it should be committed. Mr. Burke reprobated tbe commitment, as fubvcrfive of the Constitution, as founding an alarm, and blowing the trumpet of fed it ion in the Southern States. He fhouldoppofe the business to tally, and ifcho'en on the committee he (hould declinc serving. Mr. Scot was in favor of the commitment. Mr. Jnckfon was opposed to it, and painted in flrong colors the alarming confluences to be apprehended from taking up the bu siness—revolt, infurre&ion. and devastation—and concludcd by an observation similar to Mr. Burke's. Mr, Sherman could fee no difficulty in committing the memo rial : The committee rnav bring in such a.report as may prove fatisfaftory to gentlemen on all Ades. Slave Trade. Mr. Baldwiri referred to the principles of accommodation which prevailed atthetimeof forming the government. Those , mutual conceflions which then took place gave us a constitution which was to ensure the peace and the equal rights and properties of the various States : And to prevent all infraction of tiieir rights in this particular instance, they precluded themselves by an ex press stipulation from all interpolation in the slave trade. Congress are not called upon to declare their lentiments upon this occasion ; thev cannot conftiiutionally interfere in the business. He depre cated the consequences of i'uch a measure in very forcible terms ; and hoped the House would proceed no further in the iuveftiga tion of the fubjeft. Mr. Sylvester laid, that he always had been in the habit of re fpefting the society called Quakers ; he relpetted them for jjtheir exertions in the caufc of humanity; but he thought the preient was not the proper time to enter into a consideration of the fub jett. Mr Lawrance observed that the fubjett would undoubtedly come under the consideration of the House, and he thought that as it was now before them, the present time was as proper as any ; he hoped therefore that the memorial would be committed lor the purpose ot examination ; when this examination has taken place, Congress may determine how far they may conllitutionally interfere; and surely there is no danger of our exceeding our powers, we know what they are, and (hall undoubtedly keep within their limits in all our deliberations and decisions. Mr. Smith (S. C.) recurring to the memorials,obferved that Con gress could not conllitutionally interfere in the business upon the prayer of the memorialists, as that went to an entire abolition of slavery : Ii could not therefore with propriety be referred to a committee. In the southern States, difficulties on this account, had ari sen in refpeft to the ratification of the constitution, and except their apprchenfions on this head had been diftipated by their pro perty's being secured and guaranteed to them by the constitution ltfelt, they never would have adopted it. He then depicted the miseries that would result from the interference of Congress, in the southern governments—he after ted as his opinion that if there were no slaves in the southern States they would be entirely de populated—that from the nature of the country it could not be cultivated without them—that their proprietors are persons of as much humanity as the inhabitants of any part of the Continent— they areas conspicuous for their morals as any of their neighbors. He then afterted that the Quakers are a society not known to the laws ; they stand in exa£lly the fame situation with other religious societies ; their memorial relates to a matter in which they are no more interested than any other feft whatever; and it must there fore be considered in the lic;ht of advice ; and is it customary to refer a piece of advice to a committee ? He then contrasted this memorial with one which might be presented from the sett called Shaking Quakers, whose principles and practices are repiefented in a very exceptionable point of light, and asked, whether Con gress would pay any attention to such a memorial. He hoped that the memorial would not be committed. Mr. Page was in favor of the commitment—he hoped that the benevolent designs of the refpefiablc memorialist? would not be truftrated at the threshold. so far as to preclude a fair difcullion of the prayer of their memorial—he observed that they do not apply for a total abolition of flavcry—they only request that such mea sures may be taken confident with the constitution as may finally iflue in the total abolition of the slave trade—he could not con ceive that the apprehensions entertained by the gentlemen ftom Georgia and South-Carolina, were well founded, as they refpe&ed the proposed interference of Congress.—He observed that he was interested perhaps as much as any person in the consequences of the measures which may be adopted, but still he had no appre hensions of any disagreeable effects—on the contrary he thought it probable that the reverse would be the cafe—for if he was a Have he should think his condition much altered for the better in the profpe£lof a future liberation—Mr. Page spoke low, we did not hear all his observations—they were extended much further. Mr. Madison observed, that it was his opinion yesterday, that the best way to procerd in the business was to commit the me morial without any debate on the fubjc£}, from what has taken place he was more convinced of the propriety of the idea—but as the business has engaged the attention of many members, and much has been said by gentlemen, he would offer a few observations for the conficieration of the House—he then entered into a critical review of the tircumftances refpe&ing the adoption of the con stitution, the ideas upon the limitation of the powers of Congress to interfere in the regulation of the commerce in slaves—and (hew ed that they undoubtedly were not precluded from interposing in their importation—and generally to regulate the mode in which every species of business shall be tranfa&ed—He adverted to the western country—and the feflion of Georgia in which Congress have certainly the power to regulate the fubjeft of slavery, which thews that the gentlemen are niiftaken in supposing that Congress cannot conditionally interfere in the business in any degree whatever—He was in favor of committing the petition, and juf tified the measure by repeated precedents in the proceedings of the House. Mr. Gerry entered into a juftlocation of the interference of Congress—as being fully compatible with the conflitution—he defcanled on the miseries to which the Africans are fubjefted bv this traffic, and said that he r.cvcr contemplated the fubiefl, without reflecting what his own feelings would be in rase him-' felf, his children, or friends were placed in the fame deplorable cireuinftances—he then adverted to the flagrant afls of cruelty which are committed in carrying on that traffic, and asked whe ther it ran be supposed that Congress has nopowcrto prevent such tranfaftions as far as possible—He then referred to the constitu tion and pointed out the reftriftions laid on the general govern ment refpefling the importation of (laves—it is not, he pvrfumed, in the contemplation of any gentleman in this House to violate that part of the constitution—but that wc have a right to regulate this business is as clear as that we have any rights whatever nor has the contrary been (hewn by any person who has spoke on the oc casion—Congress can agreeable to the conflitution, lay a duty of tdn dollars a head on (laves—they mav do this immediately he made a calculation of the value of' the (laves in the southern States —he fuppo<Vd they might lie worth about 10 millions of dollars, —Congrels have a right if they fee proper to make a proposal to the southern States to purchase the whole of them, and their re sources in the western territory may furnilh them with the means —he did mean to fugged a measure of this kind—he only inftan ccd these particulars to shew that Congress certainly have a right to intermeddle in this bufinefs—hethought that no objection had been offered of any force to prevent the committing of the me morial. Mr. Boudinot was In favor of the commitment and enlarged on the idea suggested by Mr Gerrv, and observed that the memo rial contained only a recjueft, that Congress would interfere their authority in the cause of humanity and mercv. Mr. Gerry and Mr. Stone, severally fpoke'again on the fubjeft, tne latter gentleman in opposition to the commitment said, that this memorial was a thing of courfe—for there never was a society of any considerable extent which did not interfere with the con cerns of other people, and this interference has at one time or o ther deluged the world in blood—on this principle he was op posed to the commitment. ERR ATUM In Mr. Gerry's Speech, in our lajl,f o r " ultima rex reg urn, reaa ultima lex regum. MOVDAY. FEBRUARY '15. Mr. Goodhue presented the petition of Hannah Treat, which was read and laid on the table. Mr Thatcher prcfentcd the petition of John Stone, dating that lie had invented an improved method of dHVVQ® Piles b v which the erecting bridges over rivers may be greatly facilitated— laid on 354 On motion of Mr. Benfori, the memorial of Brigadier Gen Donald Campbell was read a second time, and referred to a com* mittce, confuting of Mr. Bland, Mr. Cadwallader and Benfon m ~ On motion of Mr. Wadfworth, the petition of Isaac TrowbricU was read a second time, and referred to the Post Master General ' In committee of the whole on the Report of the Secret m ' c the Treasury. Mr. Madiforrs motion for a discrimination under confid fra( ; 0 Mr. Sedgwick observed, that the proportion contained a queltior" of the utmost importance : That the committee mull be obho a to the gentleman who brought it forward, for bis very 1:. -- n difcuOion of the fubjeft of the Domestic Debt. With rclpeft to the question now before the Committee f 0 much has been said, he thought it would not be neceflary to con sume much ot their time in the invelligation. On the fubjeft of Contracts he observed. When ever a volun tary engagement is made for a valuable confidfcration, for proper ty advanced, or ferviccs rendered, and the terms of thecontraft are understood, if no fraud orimpofition is pra&ifed, the party enwe fing is bound to performance according to the literal meaning of the words in which it is exprefTed. That such contra#, whether of a government or an individual might be either transferable, or not transferable. That the latter species ofcontratt received an additional value from its capacity of being transferred, if the circumstances of the pofleffor ftiould render a sale of it neceflary or convenient to him. That to render the transferable quality of such evidences of conl tra&, in any degree advantageous to the pofTcffor it was neceflary to consider the alienee poflefled, in cafe of sale, of all the property of thcoriginal holder ; and indeed that it was highly absurd, and even contradi&ory to fay, that such evidences of debt were trans ferable, at the fame time to fay, that there was in them a kind of property that the holder could not convey by bona fide contrast. That this was the conftruftion which had invariably been given to these contratts whether formed by government or by individuals. That to deprive the citizen of the power of binding himfelfby his own voluntary contrafr, or to prevent a disposition of proper ty in its nature alienable, would be a violent and unjuftifiable in vasion of one of those rights of which man as a citizen is the most tenacious, and would indeed break one of the strongest bonds by which society is holdcn together. That in the transfers which had been made, the contrasts were fairly made ; the whole rights had been transferred; that it was not pretended any fraud or impofuion had been pra&ifed : the risque was calculated by the parties, and it was obfervcd, that the risque contemplated a revolution in the government. From the foregoing dedu&ion of particulars, it was presumed to have been proved that a property was vested in the transferees. That if this property was diverted by the government, the law for that purpose would have a retrofpe&ive operation, and that no ex pojl faflo\?.v/ could be more alarming than that by which the right of private property was violently invaded. Having considered the nature of the contratt, and of the obli gations which resulted from it, the attention of the committee was called to advert to those circumstances by which that obligation might be deftroved, impaired or suspended. They were stated to be i. Performance. 2. Voluntary discharge. 3. Composition. 4. Inability. And gentlemen were called upon to give information of any other caufrs which could produce either of those effects. With regard more particularly tothe proposition before the com mittee, it was observed, that with regard to these contra&s, there had existed a depreciation in confequenceof the failure of govern ment regularly to pay the interest : That in this depreciated Hate the ferurities had been alienated ; that of course the original hold ers had sustained a loss ; that if the loss resulted from the fault, and not the mislortune of the government, the creditor had unde niably a demand againftthe government for compensation ; that this demand however well founded could never authorise the go vernment to invade the honestly acquired property of the prcfent pofTeflors, a property warranted by the terms of the contratt itfelf, and fanftioned by the Ast of Congress of April 1783. and the va lidity of it recognized by the Conllitution wehad fworntofupport. With regard to the claims of the original holders it wa?, how ever. observed, that the domestic creditor at the time the contrast was formed, well knew the nature of the constitution of the go vernment administered by the other contratting party, Congress; that its power of performance depended on the ability and good will of the States ; that Congress had always performed its duty, had made the necedary requisitions; that this was its utmost pow er ; that the failure had arisen wholly from the ncgleft of the States. He therefore submitted to the committee, whether, if the ori ginal holder had a jufl or equitable demand, he should not resort to the state of which he is a member ? It was admitted that the cafe of an original holder was indeed a hard one ; that thefpeakcr had a refpeft for his misfortunes and for his pretensions : That if fatisfa£lion was difcovercd to bejuft and practicable, he would not hesitate to go to the utmost ability of the government for that purpose. But it was asked, what mer it would the government pofTefs, if it ft ripped one class of citizens who had acquired by the knowh and eflablifhed rules of law, pro perty, of that property, under the specious pretence of doing jul tice to another class of citizens. It was observed, that it was implicitly agreed, that 80 per cent, depreciation would not authorize the interference proposed by the motion. It was asked that some point of depreciation should W pointed out which would authorise such interference. It was observed that the fide of the queftionfor which he con tended, had received the universal approbation of mankind ; that there was no instances of interference contended for, and that this general sense of mankind afforded some evidence of truth. It was said, that this contrast was founded on a valuable con fidcration. It was the price of ourliberry and independence. 1 hat the pofleffor claimed according to the very terms of the contract. That it was not pretended that the engagement of go vernment had been performed. No composition with the credi tor was proposed ; nor was the proposition founded on any pre tended inability of the government; for to comply with the in tention of it, 1,600,000 annually more, was neceffaiy than was proposed by the report of the Secretary. It was observed that by reason of the circumstances which had taken place Mr. Madison supposed that if the whole amount of a fecuritv (hall be paid to the present podeflor, he will have a sum of money to which the original holder is equitably entitled. It this is true then no interposition is necefiary, it being a well known rule of law, that an a£lion will always lie to recover money out of the hands of another to which the plaintiff from the principles of equity and good conscience is entitled. With regard to the effe&s which would probably rcfult from this measure, it was observed that it would be deflruftive to our national character : That the world was now willing charitably to impute our former miscarriages to events we could not con troul. But Ihould our firft measures in regard to public faith be a violent mfraflion of our contra&s, it would fan£tion all our bitterest enemies have said to our disadvantage. With regard to its effe&s on credit, it was observed, that litt*e dependence would be placed on the plighted faith of a govern ment which under the pretence of doing equity* had exercised a power of d ifpenfing with its contrasts, and had thereby formed for itfclf a precedent of like future violations both with iefpefl to its funds and contrails. I hat With regard to discovering who was the origina? holder, except so far as refpe6led the army debt,it was declared that there were no documents by which the neceltary fatts could be disco vered. It was dated as a facl that with regard to much the greater part of the debt, any fictitious name was inserted. That with regar
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