CONGRESS. BOIfSF OF RF.PFF.SENTAI7VFS. Man Jay, September 19. The henfe went . • a committee of the whole, Mr. LawraC in the chair, on the Prtainent's On that r 1 i t \. 1. '<* relates to the reduction ot the publi d«bf, T"v.r. VitMimons offered a refo lunon ro the to tawing purport : — Refold ;1, - the opinion of this committee, that for the reduction of so much of ■the r-.t-r'.ij debt as the United Suites have a npht o redeem, ought to he adopted. And that the iccretafy the treasury be directed to report a plan for that purpose. Mr. Madifoil wiihed for information before he couldagreeto the.motion just made. Theexact fiate of our finances he conceived neceflary to be well known before measures were taken for the reJu&ion of the debt. The house of repre fentati- es had already unequivocally expressed their general sentiments 011 the fubjedV, in their anfwerto t&e President's speech; but it was not time, he conceived, for the adoption of mea sures with a view to realize what appeared the general wish, until the information on which those measures were to be grounded, was re tived Mr. Fitzfimons argued, that the motion, if adopted, would call forth the information neces sary to ground a final measure upon. The re commendation from the President >vas strong, and the anfwerof the house as pofitiv<;; no de ference of opinion, he therefore supposed, could cxift as to the propriety of reducing the debt. The United States had paid a valuable, consi deration for the right of reducing it, and the firft opportunity of making use of that right, he conceived the best. Mr. Williamfon was of opinion, that infor mation would come in of course. The Presi dent, .he fuggeflcd, 110 doubt was acquainted with the firuation of the revenue when he re • commended the reduction oi the debt at the present time. He fliould be in favour of the mo tion. He declared it as his opinion, that our public debt was our moll dangerous enemy ; he wished it could be reduced twice as fa ft ; the ir redeemable quality of part of it he much dis liked. Mr. Madison again expreffcd it as his opini on, that information ftiould form the basis of any provision for the redu&ion of the debt. If the motion was carried, information no doubt could be obtained before the final adoption of any measure ; but he insisted on the necessity of making that information the groundwork of any proceeding on so important a fubjevSt Mr. Mercer, No question, he conceived, was of more importance than that involved in the motion before the house. He wiftied for time to make up his mind on i . It involved one ques tion which had occafisned very warm debate in the house, and which was decided but by a small majority—he alluded to the reference mad« la'.l fellion to the secretary of the treasury. He conceived it improper to commit to any man, what he was bound himfelf to do. He con ceived the power of the house to originate plans of finance, to lay new burthens on the people entrusted to them by their conftituei}ts, as in communicable. As to the main objeA of the motion, he ra ther doubted the propriety of adopting, at pre sent, a permanent system for the redu&ion of the public debt. The noufe, he said, ftcod in a very delicate fituatlon—a fuller representation will shortly succeed the prel'ent. He saw a propriety in making a temporary provision to redeem, in or der to lecure the right of reducing - in future. He hoped the house would consent to a delay of a day or two, when members would be better prepare d. Mr. Smith, S. C. conceived, that, as the mo tion had been made alid seconded, some decision raufl be obtained on it, or that the committee must rife, He saw no good realon for leaving it to afiture house, to adopt a permanent plan of reduction. If it was now thought too early a period to accomplilh l'o dt-firnbte an obje<sl, it would be a good reason for deferring it; but if it was full time, meafuresfor that purpose (honld be adopted, they should go forward. Iftlie gen tleman required further time to make up his mind, the committee might rife and fit again in a day or two. He next made some reply to the objedionsof the gentleman last up, to that part of the mo tion which contemplated a reference to the se cretary of the treasury. The ultimate decision, he remarked, in no one point, was relinquished by such a reference. If such a reference was un conllitutional, he observed, much business had been conduced in the house in an unconflitu tioiial manner, by repeated references to the Jttacis of departments. The reference of btffinefs to feled committees would be unconstitution al, he laid, on the fame ground. Turning oil ihe main question—the house, he conceived, were in poffefijon of informatiin already, that wculd warrant a beginning in the work of reducing the public debt. From the re port of the trulrees of the finking fund, lead in the morning, it appeared, that they had funds remaining in tbeir hands. ' house rad pledged themselves in their an swer to the PrcfiJcrit's addrefj, to proceed on the ti' if-; now to refer the bufinrfi to a future Congr.rl . would appear like great relnftance to j'O i T 'tot\e meaiure, and wo p. id argue great un ite*(!. i: ■!i. Ihe f\ flem to he adopted for the purpw'e contem; could not, he conceived, b. attempted, in the firA uiftance, info Urge a body , s a committee of the whole house. He hopt. the pueftion rn the motion would obtain a decide :it the present time; but if thegentle n.an perfiiled in refuelling a delay, he wilhed the committee to rife and alk leave to lit a°ain. Mr. Sedgwick coareived, the house duf not need any more information than they were in pofTciTxdn of, to fee 'the propriety of adopting immediate ineafuresfor the redu&ion of the debt. The United States, it was evident, he said, are paying more than the market interest upon their debt—it fells above par, and, considering the rate at which loans can he obtained in Eu rope 011 the credit of the United States, that mode of reducing the deb' was, he said, incon trovcrtibly eligible. It would be economical for an individual, in similar circumstances, to cffe& a reduction, and the cafe wa» the fame, the U nited States being in the place of that individual. It was agreed to in the house, he f.iid, and re echoed out of doors, that a public debt was a public evil; it was the duty, therefore, of the representative* of the people, to use all the means in their power, whenever opportunity offjred, to reduce it. He made some observations on the propriety of referring the business to the secretary for in formation and his opinion, and concluded by de claring, that, viewing the main question as he firfl dated, he could not fee any neceflity in de ferring a question on the motion. Mr. Mercer expressed some surprise at the disinclination some gentlemen appeared to {hew to a full difcufiion on so important a lubje&. He again obfe&ed to a reference. That mode of conducing business in the house, he said, had p-iven very general diffatisfa&ion. The mode was adopted by a small majority—the hcufe had received, since its aaoption, an acceflion of new memkers—beiides, since, every member had mix ed with his conftituentSj and opinions might consequently have varied since that tin I .®. For his part, he said, he,ftiould pay great and im plicit regard t<» the opinion of his constituents. He again adverted to the nature c>f the trust reposed in the house by the conftitmion, in ori ginating money hills, See. and dwelt on the true import of the word originate, which he conceived could not be explained away, so as to warrant a reference. Besides, he argued, is not a body fetched from millions of the people, more adequate to the talk of originating., than a single man. He hoped, that refpeft to the frefident's re commendation would never make the house in attentive to the great interests of the people. The President's address had not been so long before the house, as that a Ihort delay fnould ar gue difrefpeiffc. But the President, in his address, did not, he said, recommend a reference to the secretary. He was willing to give a decision on the firft part of the motion—though he would pi sfer a delay of a day or two; if this, however, was not granted, he fhouU call, he said, for adivi fion of the queirion, He again adverted to the propriety < f taking advantage of the redeemable quality of our deb.t as soon as poflible; observing that the next term of payment of interest came round with the new year. Mr. Fkzumons observed that he was in the minority on the question adverted to by the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Mercer) — that he had not since altered his opinion upon that fubji A, but eonfidered tke present reference as very different from the former, and entirely within the letter and spirit of the a <51 for eftab lifliing the treasury department. He did not believe it would be n ceffary to impose addition al burdens, to effeA a reduction ©f the debt. He believed that the existing finances, aflifted by a foreign loan, would enable the United States to accomplish the objed;. As to the reports from the treasury or other officers, —they will Hand 011 their own merits. If they are bad, they will be rejected. Mr. Mkdifo'e drew a diftin&ion between the deliberative functions of the house and the mi nifterul functions of the Executive Powers. The deliberative functions, he conceived, Ihould be firftexercilcd before the miniflerial began t«a&. It should be decided by the house, in the firft in stance, he conceived, whether the debt should be reduced by iniponng new taxes, or by varying the burdens, or by new loans. The fundamen tal principles of any nieafure he was of opinion, should be decided in the house, perhaps even be fore * reference to a felecß: committee. He did not pretend to determine whether the motion now before the house might not involve a refer ence of a ministerial nature merely. But he well knew, he said, that the a«sl eltablifliing the Trea sury depaitment had beep so construed as to give it a greater latitude than was contempla ted when the lawpatted,muchagainft the opinion of a great portion of the people. In the infancy of our government, that latitude, perhaps might be neccffary; but he saw no ncceiftty for it at present. w Mr. Fage eppofed a division of the question as precluding debate. He wished the motion a mended, by striking out the last part. Mr. Findley was against a reference to the Se cretary of the Treasury of a matter, which, he conceived, was made the exclusive business of the house by the constitution. Mr. Mercer expressed himfclf in favour of striking out the lafl part of the motion. Mr. Hiilhoufe wa» of a different opinion. H« conflituents, he conceived, expected their busi ness to be done in the bell manner pofTible, and that he Ihould not rely on his own information only, but endeavour to avail himfelf of the in formation of others, He said he Ihould consider himfelf unequal to the talk of taking a (hare in legislating for the Union if he was to depend 011 his own information alone. He expeifted to de rive information from every lource. It was the intention of meeting in Congreli to <olle£t in foi mation from every quarter. He ftiould defpile any one, he iaid, he Ihould defpile himfelf if he thought his judg ment could be ire properly influencedby aHyplan reported by any of the heads of department. If any fyfttrm, originating \»ith the head of a de partment appeared the bed that could be devised it fht-uld meet the sppiobation of the house ; but if any amendment was thought of, it was the duty of tt e houle £0 adopt or reject it according to its merits. 202 He considered reports In the light of informa tion, and dwelt on the necessity of receiving in formation, from every quarter. He was against ftnking out. Mr. Find ley was in favour of ft risking out. He was a friend to information, he said, but the reports from heads of departments lie did not consider in the light of information merely. It was information, and plans built on that, and those plans supported by arguments. Though a law, he said, had made it the pro vince of the Secretary of the Treasury to repprt tl ofe plans ; —the conflitution had not enjoined the house to refer; and he hoped the house, be ing the masters of their own proceedings, would originate such measures themselves. The house had aright to, and, he conceived ftiould call for what information was wanted to enable them to digest their own plans. Mr. Murray observed, that the debate on the propriety of referring to the Secretary of the Treasury the business contemplated in the mo tion, had produced but few new arguments ; it was a repetition of what was said when the fub jcA was before the house at another time. One new idea, however, he observed, had fal len from the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Ma dilon) viz. his diftin&ion between deliberative and ministerial fun&ions. This diflin&ion, he conceived, is qualified by the nature of things. It i- qualified in this instance, by the law which establishes the Treasury department, That law makes it the duty of the Secretary, to'digeft and report plans to ameliorate our finances,with out any call from the house. True the business of the house is to deliberate ;but by references, naither is the power of the house to deliberate infringed, nor does it give the Secretary a right legislatively to deliberate, but to deliberate mi nisterially; and it was important, he conceived, in a government framed like ours that such offi cers (hould have the power to deliberate in that manner. The result of their deliberations was not obligatory on the house, —no further than it was warranted by wifdem. He was averse to striking out —was willing to allow further time for confederation. He should like to fee, for his own part, a statement of the revenue. He again expressed it as his firm opinion, that a report from the head of a department could no further influence the house, than by the weight of ths wisdom it contained. Whenevtr ministerial influence, he observed, was felt in the house, othenvife than by weight of wisdom, it would but little matter, he concei ved, whether Secretaries had it in their power to report plans or not. Reports, he conceived, would never have an improper influence, as long as the legislature preserved their character for wisdom and integrity. The information to be derived from the head of a department, could never, he suggested, be \obtained in a more proper manner, than by mak ing it the foundation of deliberation. Suppoling the house should undertake to originate without this previous step, and a difficulty should occur for want of information ; it would be he concei ved, derogatory to the dignity of the house to appiy then to the Secretary for afliftante, and more dangerous to proceed in error or ig- Jiorance. He rather wished for a fliort delay ; —but if the question was urged, he lhould certainly vote, he said, against ftrikingout. Mr. Madison saw some difficulty in drawing the exa<sl line between fubjeibof legillative and miniftei ial deliberations; but llill I'uch a line tnoft certainly existed. Gentlemen v;ho ar gued the propriety of calling t>n the Secreta ry for information, plans and proportion*, in volved the propriety of permitting that oHicer in the shape of a plan or measure to propose a new tax, and lay whether it should be a dired: or indirect one. Yet, if it wns proposed directly to give this power to the Secretary, few mem bers, ke believed, would agree to it. He was in favour of striking out. Mr. Gerry said, that while the law eftablifli injj th£ Trtafury department was under conside ration, he had opposed that part of the bill which gave the Secrtiiiy power propoue to the liouie a tax and a plan to carry it into execution. He conceived such a powei; contrary to the princi ples of the constitution. This power i* however, involved in that part of the law which autho rizes him to propose, without being called on, plans for the lupport of credit, for the redu&ion of the publie debt,&c. The Secretary, neverthe- knowing probably, that that power, grant ed him by the law, was looked upon with & jea lous eye by many members of the house, has ne ver exercificd it. He, however, was not averse to referring the obje& of the motion to the Secretary. lie law an impofiibility, if taken up in a committee of the whole, in rendering the intended measure an uniform part of the gntat financial whole. The clashing of varioas opinions would prevent it. If the influence of the Secretary was formi dable he conceived, it would be much more dangerous if exerted againfl a ft:le& committee, than in the whole house. He hoped the last part of the resolution would not be struck out. On motion »-be committee rofr, repprted pro grcfs and aiked leave to fit again. House adjourned. Sketch of the Observations ivh'ub ivere made on MR. Murray'S Motion, That a Committee be appointed to bring in a Bilifupplementary to the Militia Law pafled the last feflion. Mr. Liveririore rose to enquire, what parti cular part of the law, was the objed of the re solution? Mr. Murray explained; he informed the house that it had special reference to the clause which refpe&s arming the militia. He said, the injunc tions of the law, in this particular, imposed c qual burthens, on Ihoulders infinitely difpropor tioned as to their capacity i,o sustain them : it duties en the major part of the mfiin. ci such a nature, as renders the iaw totall? un* practicable. A man not worth one fartlunp, i„ iubjc&ed to the fame expence with one who msy be worth ten thouiknd pounds a year: the ine quality, evident in the operation of such a requi fitioii, is a plaring infiance of injustice, and calls «idly for legislative interposition and relief. adverted* to the paiticular lituation of the Oate of Maryland, to !'ic\v the impr»6tic»bilitT of carrying the law into exception in that part of the Ur.ini!. Mr. Will:, mfon si e.>cl'»r 1 an alteration in the rtfotution. Ii Would be better, in his opinion, to have it read, a bill to amend the militia law. He moved for this alteration.—Mr. WJlliamfon ohferved, that he thought the law fufeptiblc of ftveral amendments; but with refp-c; to the ob jection of the gentleman from Maryland, he said it npplied with equal force to many other part» of the law, particularly with regard to the gen eral performance of militia duty. Mr. Livermore stated fonie obje&ioni to the indefitenefs of the resolution. Mr. Greenup ohferved, that he had fecondcd the motion of the gentleman from Maryland, because he thought many parts of the law might be amended in fucli manner, as to make it more applicable to ths circumlUnces of the state of Kentucky; which, from its peculiar situation, could not derive those advantages from the law, which other parts of the Union might; the want of which were l'enfibly felt. He preferred adopt ing the words to amend, in lieu of ' fupplemeil lary.' Mr. Hillhoufe obje«sled to the motion: he thought that competent relief, in the cafe com plained of, might be obtained from tke state le gislature. He added, that the law had fcarc»ly got into operation; some of the Rates have made provision to carry it into execution; others are about doing the fame: and he doubted the poli cy, exceedingly, of taking any lltps in the bufi ncls, before any experience of the law hail been had. Mr. Fitzfimons offered some remarks of a si- milar nature. Mr. Mercer supported the Motion. He or. ged a variety of reasons, to (hew the importance of taking immediate measures to amend and » meliorate the law: if thii is not don*, faidhe, it will fan&ion the idea, already entertained by many of the refpe&afcle citizens of the Union, that there is a disinclination, on the part of ma ny members of the legislature, to provide for an ufFedtive militia—that a neceflity may be indu* ced for a (landing army. He adverted to the injufticc of the requisition, which enjoins, that a man who is not worth twenty (hillings, ftiould incur an expence of twenty pounds, fti equip ping himfelf as a militia man. Mr. Murray's motion, for a committee, was negatived; fourteen members, only, rising in the affirmative. IVednefday, November 21. The petition of John Sinclair others was read, praying a settlement M their accounts for public services—Laid on the table. Mr. Lee moved for the order of the day on the fubje£t of loft certificates.— This motion was w ayed, to take into con- the report of the Committee of the whole on the Prefidcntfs speech. The several relolutions agreed to by the com mittee were read,-; but the house being thin their consideration was deferred. Mr. Murray called for the resolution which he laid on the table yesterday, " that a com mittee be appointed to repeal that clause of the militia Jaw which relates to the arming the milita t: is being read, Mr. Murray said he ilill bad hopes, though hir. iirft motion the day before had failed.— The present motion was to repeal the clause which he hoped to prove obnoxiou^—as it •was more limited than the former one—and as he did not mean by this to £o into a general revilion of the whole law, out confine the re pca> and fnbftitute to the arming claufe,he ima* gined many gentlemen Would frpport his in tentions, who yesterday were averse to open ing the whole law to revision. The clause in question was obnoxious to his constituents —a late and most intimate knowledge of his dif tr"usl had enabled him with great confidence to fay so ; and he had reason to believe that unlets an alteration in the law took place, no a6t of the legislature of Maryland would give it the desired operatien in fhat llatc. The clause was difagrceable to his constituents, becanfe it was oppreflive in principle, and im practicable in its operation. It was a princi p'e of political justice which no occasion couid dispense with, that prote&ion and taxation should be commensurate* That wherever a ta'x was levy'd for the protection of fodct}, its apportionment among individuals should be as exa<stly as polTibls porrefpondent with tlfe property of each individual. There is «* much justice in this, that he did notJnppo.e it would be controverted. The opprcilion t. at will be felt in the operation of this clau.e, flows from the violation of that princip c. The obligation to arm in a particular man ner, as it vill produce a uniform expence on men of unequal property, m ill prove a tax that will ast unjustly, becai.fe unequally— m~n will not pay agreeably so their propei ty. To illustrate this iseafy, and the plaineftmode of the truth. By the law, he who s past his forty-fifth vear, is exempt from mi litia duty. It mull: often happen that men of large fortune will thus contribute nothins toward- thi species of ftfotrftion, v.mle the man of very fmali fortune will be obl-.ged to futnifli largelyto if, if the father of a family capable and of age to hear anus, lor tne fake of harmonv ai d a ready clifpriitwn to fall into a patriotic impul'e, he much doubted whether his constituents povM have mur mured much at the violation ot the principal % •#
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