CONGRESS.
BOIfSF OF RF.PFF.SENTAI7VFS.
Man Jay, September 19.
The henfe went . • a committee of the
whole, Mr. LawraC in the chair, on the
Prtainent's
On that r 1 i t \. 1. '<* relates to the reduction ot
the publi d«bf, T"v.r. VitMimons offered a refo
lunon ro the to tawing purport : —
Refold ;1, - the opinion of this committee,
that for the reduction of so much of
■the r-.t-r'.ij debt as the United Suites have a npht
o redeem, ought to he adopted. And that the
iccretafy the treasury be directed to report a
plan for that purpose.
Mr. Madifoil wiihed for information before
he couldagreeto the.motion just made. Theexact
fiate of our finances he conceived neceflary to
be well known before measures were taken for
the reJu&ion of the debt. The house of repre
fentati- es had already unequivocally expressed
their general sentiments 011 the fubjedV, in their
anfwerto t&e President's speech; but it was not
time, he conceived, for the adoption of mea
sures with a view to realize what appeared the
general wish, until the information on which
those measures were to be grounded, was re
tived
Mr. Fitzfimons argued, that the motion, if
adopted, would call forth the information neces
sary to ground a final measure upon. The re
commendation from the President >vas strong,
and the anfwerof the house as pofitiv<;; no de
ference of opinion, he therefore supposed, could
cxift as to the propriety of reducing the debt.
The United States had paid a valuable, consi
deration for the right of reducing it, and the
firft opportunity of making use of that right, he
conceived the best.
Mr. Williamfon was of opinion, that infor
mation would come in of course. The Presi
dent, .he fuggeflcd, 110 doubt was acquainted
with the firuation of the revenue when he re •
commended the reduction oi the debt at the
present time. He fliould be in favour of the mo
tion. He declared it as his opinion, that our
public debt was our moll dangerous enemy ; he
wished it could be reduced twice as fa ft ; the ir
redeemable quality of part of it he much dis
liked.
Mr. Madison again expreffcd it as his opini
on, that information ftiould form the basis of
any provision for the redu&ion of the debt. If
the motion was carried, information no doubt
could be obtained before the final adoption of
any measure ; but he insisted on the necessity of
making that information the groundwork of any
proceeding on so important a fubjevSt
Mr. Mercer, No question, he conceived, was
of more importance than that involved in the
motion before the house. He wiftied for time
to make up his mind on i . It involved one ques
tion which had occafisned very warm debate in
the house, and which was decided but by a small
majority—he alluded to the reference mad«
la'.l fellion to the secretary of the treasury.
He conceived it improper to commit to any
man, what he was bound himfelf to do. He con
ceived the power of the house to originate plans
of finance, to lay new burthens on the people
entrusted to them by their conftituei}ts, as in
communicable.
As to the main objeA of the motion, he ra
ther doubted the propriety of adopting, at pre
sent, a permanent system for the redu&ion of
the public debt.
The noufe, he said, ftcod in a very delicate
fituatlon—a fuller representation will shortly
succeed the prel'ent. He saw a propriety in
making a temporary provision to redeem, in or
der to lecure the right of reducing - in future.
He hoped the house would consent to a delay of
a day or two, when members would be better
prepare d.
Mr. Smith, S. C. conceived, that, as the mo
tion had been made alid seconded, some decision
raufl be obtained on it, or that the committee
must rife, He saw no good realon for leaving it
to afiture house, to adopt a permanent plan of
reduction. If it was now thought too early a
period to accomplilh l'o dt-firnbte an obje<sl, it
would be a good reason for deferring it; but if
it was full time, meafuresfor that purpose (honld
be adopted, they should go forward. Iftlie gen
tleman required further time to make up his
mind, the committee might rife and fit again in
a day or two.
He next made some reply to the objedionsof
the gentleman last up, to that part of the mo
tion which contemplated a reference to the se
cretary of the treasury. The ultimate decision,
he remarked, in no one point, was relinquished
by such a reference. If such a reference was un
conllitutional, he observed, much business had
been conduced in the house in an unconflitu
tioiial manner, by repeated references to the
Jttacis of departments. The reference of btffinefs
to feled committees would be unconstitution
al, he laid, on the fame ground.
Turning oil ihe main question—the house,
he conceived, were in poffefijon of informatiin
already, that wculd warrant a beginning in the
work of reducing the public debt. From the re
port of the trulrees of the finking fund, lead in
the morning, it appeared, that they had funds
remaining in tbeir hands.
' house rad pledged themselves in their an
swer to the PrcfiJcrit's addrefj, to proceed on
the ti' if-; now to refer the bufinrfi to a future
Congr.rl . would appear like great relnftance to
j'O i T 'tot\e meaiure, and wo p. id argue great un
ite*(!. i: ■!i. Ihe f\ flem to he adopted for the
purpw'e contem; could not, he conceived,
b. attempted, in the firA uiftance, info Urge a
body , s a committee of the whole house. He
hopt. the pueftion rn the motion would obtain
a decide :it the present time; but if thegentle
n.an perfiiled in refuelling a delay, he wilhed
the committee to rife and alk leave to lit a°ain.
Mr. Sedgwick coareived, the house duf not
need any more information than they were in
pofTciTxdn of, to fee 'the propriety of adopting
immediate ineafuresfor the redu&ion of the debt.
The United States, it was evident, he said,
are paying more than the market interest upon
their debt—it fells above par, and, considering
the rate at which loans can he obtained in Eu
rope 011 the credit of the United States, that
mode of reducing the deb' was, he said, incon
trovcrtibly eligible. It would be economical for
an individual, in similar circumstances, to cffe&
a reduction, and the cafe wa» the fame, the U
nited States being in the place of that individual.
It was agreed to in the house, he f.iid, and re
echoed out of doors, that a public debt was a
public evil; it was the duty, therefore, of the
representative* of the people, to use all the
means in their power, whenever opportunity
offjred, to reduce it.
He made some observations on the propriety
of referring the business to the secretary for in
formation and his opinion, and concluded by de
claring, that, viewing the main question as he
firfl dated, he could not fee any neceflity in de
ferring a question on the motion.
Mr. Mercer expressed some surprise at the
disinclination some gentlemen appeared to {hew
to a full difcufiion on so important a lubje&. He
again obfe&ed to a reference. That mode of
conducing business in the house, he said, had
p-iven very general diffatisfa&ion. The mode
was adopted by a small majority—the hcufe had
received, since its aaoption, an acceflion of new
memkers—beiides, since, every member had mix
ed with his conftituentSj and opinions might
consequently have varied since that tin I .®. For
his part, he said, he,ftiould pay great and im
plicit regard t<» the opinion of his constituents.
He again adverted to the nature c>f the trust
reposed in the house by the conftitmion, in ori
ginating money hills, See. and dwelt on the
true import of the word originate, which he
conceived could not be explained away, so as to
warrant a reference. Besides, he argued, is not
a body fetched from millions of the people,
more adequate to the talk of originating., than
a single man.
He hoped, that refpeft to the frefident's re
commendation would never make the house in
attentive to the great interests of the people.
The President's address had not been so long
before the house, as that a Ihort delay fnould ar
gue difrefpeiffc.
But the President, in his address, did not, he
said, recommend a reference to the secretary.
He was willing to give a decision on the firft
part of the motion—though he would pi sfer a
delay of a day or two; if this, however, was
not granted, he fhouU call, he said, for adivi
fion of the queirion,
He again adverted to the propriety < f taking
advantage of the redeemable quality of our deb.t
as soon as poflible; observing that the next term
of payment of interest came round with the new
year.
Mr. Fkzumons observed that he was in the
minority on the question adverted to by the
gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Mercer) —
that he had not since altered his opinion upon
that fubji A, but eonfidered tke present reference
as very different from the former, and entirely
within the letter and spirit of the a <51 for eftab
lifliing the treasury department. He did not
believe it would be n ceffary to impose addition
al burdens, to effeA a reduction ©f the debt.
He believed that the existing finances, aflifted
by a foreign loan, would enable the United
States to accomplish the objed;.
As to the reports from the treasury or other
officers, —they will Hand 011 their own merits.
If they are bad, they will be rejected.
Mr. Mkdifo'e drew a diftin&ion between the
deliberative functions of the house and the mi
nifterul functions of the Executive Powers. The
deliberative functions, he conceived, Ihould be
firftexercilcd before the miniflerial began t«a&.
It should be decided by the house, in the firft in
stance, he conceived, whether the debt should
be reduced by iniponng new taxes, or by varying
the burdens, or by new loans. The fundamen
tal principles of any nieafure he was of opinion,
should be decided in the house, perhaps even be
fore * reference to a felecß: committee. He did
not pretend to determine whether the motion
now before the house might not involve a refer
ence of a ministerial nature merely. But he well
knew, he said, that the a«sl eltablifliing the Trea
sury depaitment had beep so construed as to
give it a greater latitude than was contempla
ted when the lawpatted,muchagainft the opinion
of a great portion of the people. In the infancy
of our government, that latitude, perhaps might
be neccffary; but he saw no ncceiftty for it at
present. w
Mr. Fage eppofed a division of the question
as precluding debate. He wished the motion a
mended, by striking out the last part.
Mr. Findley was against a reference to the Se
cretary of the Treasury of a matter, which, he
conceived, was made the exclusive business of the
house by the constitution.
Mr. Mercer expressed himfclf in favour of
striking out the lafl part of the motion.
Mr. Hiilhoufe wa» of a different opinion. H«
conflituents, he conceived, expected their busi
ness to be done in the bell manner pofTible, and
that he Ihould not rely on his own information
only, but endeavour to avail himfelf of the in
formation of others, He said he Ihould consider
himfelf unequal to the talk of taking a (hare in
legislating for the Union if he was to depend 011
his own information alone. He expeifted to de
rive information from every lource. It was the
intention of meeting in Congreli to <olle£t in
foi mation from every quarter.
He ftiould defpile any one, he iaid, he
Ihould defpile himfelf if he thought his judg
ment could be ire properly influencedby aHyplan
reported by any of the heads of department. If
any fyfttrm, originating \»ith the head of a de
partment appeared the bed that could be devised
it fht-uld meet the sppiobation of the house ; but
if any amendment was thought of, it was the
duty of tt e houle £0 adopt or reject it according
to its merits.
202
He considered reports In the light of informa
tion, and dwelt on the necessity of receiving in
formation, from every quarter. He was against
ftnking out.
Mr. Find ley was in favour of ft risking out.
He was a friend to information, he said, but the
reports from heads of departments lie did not
consider in the light of information merely. It
was information, and plans built on that, and
those plans supported by arguments.
Though a law, he said, had made it the pro
vince of the Secretary of the Treasury to repprt
tl ofe plans ; —the conflitution had not enjoined
the house to refer; and he hoped the house, be
ing the masters of their own proceedings, would
originate such measures themselves.
The house had aright to, and, he conceived
ftiould call for what information was wanted to
enable them to digest their own plans.
Mr. Murray observed, that the debate on the
propriety of referring to the Secretary of the
Treasury the business contemplated in the mo
tion, had produced but few new arguments ; it
was a repetition of what was said when the fub
jcA was before the house at another time.
One new idea, however, he observed, had fal
len from the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Ma
dilon) viz. his diftin&ion between deliberative
and ministerial fun&ions. This diflin&ion, he
conceived, is qualified by the nature of things.
It i- qualified in this instance, by the law
which establishes the Treasury department, That
law makes it the duty of the Secretary, to'digeft
and report plans to ameliorate our finances,with
out any call from the house. True the business
of the house is to deliberate ;but by references,
naither is the power of the house to deliberate
infringed, nor does it give the Secretary a right
legislatively to deliberate, but to deliberate mi
nisterially; and it was important, he conceived,
in a government framed like ours that such offi
cers (hould have the power to deliberate in that
manner. The result of their deliberations was
not obligatory on the house, —no further than it
was warranted by wifdem.
He was averse to striking out —was willing
to allow further time for confederation. He
should like to fee, for his own part, a statement
of the revenue.
He again expressed it as his firm opinion, that
a report from the head of a department could no
further influence the house, than by the weight
of ths wisdom it contained.
Whenevtr ministerial influence, he observed,
was felt in the house, othenvife than by weight
of wisdom, it would but little matter, he concei
ved, whether Secretaries had it in their power to
report plans or not. Reports, he conceived,
would never have an improper influence, as long
as the legislature preserved their character for
wisdom and integrity.
The information to be derived from the head
of a department, could never, he suggested, be
\obtained in a more proper manner, than by mak
ing it the foundation of deliberation. Suppoling
the house should undertake to originate without
this previous step, and a difficulty should occur
for want of information ; it would be he concei
ved, derogatory to the dignity of the house to
appiy then to the Secretary for afliftante, and
more dangerous to proceed in error or ig-
Jiorance.
He rather wished for a fliort delay ; —but if
the question was urged, he lhould certainly vote,
he said, against ftrikingout.
Mr. Madison saw some difficulty in drawing
the exa<sl line between fubjeibof legillative and
miniftei ial deliberations; but llill I'uch a line
tnoft certainly existed. Gentlemen v;ho ar
gued the propriety of calling t>n the Secreta
ry for information, plans and proportion*, in
volved the propriety of permitting that oHicer
in the shape of a plan or measure to propose a
new tax, and lay whether it should be a dired:
or indirect one. Yet, if it wns proposed directly
to give this power to the Secretary, few mem
bers, ke believed, would agree to it. He was in
favour of striking out.
Mr. Gerry said, that while the law eftablifli
injj th£ Trtafury department was under conside
ration, he had opposed that part of the bill which
gave the Secrtiiiy power propoue to the liouie
a tax and a plan to carry it into execution. He
conceived such a powei; contrary to the princi
ples of the constitution. This power i* however,
involved in that part of the law which autho
rizes him to propose, without being called on,
plans for the lupport of credit, for the redu&ion
of the publie debt,&c. The Secretary, neverthe-
knowing probably, that that power, grant
ed him by the law, was looked upon with & jea
lous eye by many members of the house, has ne
ver exercificd it.
He, however, was not averse to referring the
obje& of the motion to the Secretary. lie law
an impofiibility, if taken up in a committee of
the whole, in rendering the intended measure
an uniform part of the gntat financial whole.
The clashing of varioas opinions would prevent
it.
If the influence of the Secretary was formi
dable he conceived, it would be much more
dangerous if exerted againfl a ft:le& committee,
than in the whole house.
He hoped the last part of the resolution would
not be struck out.
On motion »-be committee rofr, repprted pro
grcfs and aiked leave to fit again.
House adjourned.
Sketch of the Observations ivh'ub ivere made on
MR. Murray'S Motion,
That a Committee be appointed to bring in a
Bilifupplementary to the Militia Law
pafled the last feflion.
Mr. Liveririore rose to enquire, what parti
cular part of the law, was the objed of the re
solution?
Mr. Murray explained; he informed the house
that it had special reference to the clause which
refpe&s arming the militia. He said, the injunc
tions of the law, in this particular, imposed c
qual burthens, on Ihoulders infinitely difpropor
tioned as to their capacity i,o sustain them : it
duties en the major part of the mfiin.
ci such a nature, as renders the iaw totall? un*
practicable. A man not worth one fartlunp, i„
iubjc&ed to the fame expence with one who msy
be worth ten thouiknd pounds a year: the ine
quality, evident in the operation of such a requi
fitioii, is a plaring infiance of injustice, and calls
«idly for legislative interposition and relief.
adverted* to the paiticular lituation of the
Oate of Maryland, to !'ic\v the impr»6tic»bilitT
of carrying the law into exception in that part
of the Ur.ini!.
Mr. Will:, mfon si e.>cl'»r 1 an alteration in the
rtfotution. Ii Would be better, in his opinion,
to have it read, a bill to amend the militia law.
He moved for this alteration.—Mr. WJlliamfon
ohferved, that he thought the law fufeptiblc of
ftveral amendments; but with refp-c; to the ob
jection of the gentleman from Maryland, he said
it npplied with equal force to many other part»
of the law, particularly with regard to the gen
eral performance of militia duty.
Mr. Livermore stated fonie obje&ioni to the
indefitenefs of the resolution.
Mr. Greenup ohferved, that he had fecondcd
the motion of the gentleman from Maryland,
because he thought many parts of the law might
be amended in fucli manner, as to make it more
applicable to ths circumlUnces of the state of
Kentucky; which, from its peculiar situation,
could not derive those advantages from the law,
which other parts of the Union might; the want
of which were l'enfibly felt. He preferred adopt
ing the words to amend, in lieu of ' fupplemeil
lary.'
Mr. Hillhoufe obje«sled to the motion: he
thought that competent relief, in the cafe com
plained of, might be obtained from tke state le
gislature. He added, that the law had fcarc»ly
got into operation; some of the Rates have made
provision to carry it into execution; others are
about doing the fame: and he doubted the poli
cy, exceedingly, of taking any lltps in the bufi
ncls, before any experience of the law hail been
had.
Mr. Fitzfimons offered some remarks of a si-
milar nature.
Mr. Mercer supported the Motion. He or.
ged a variety of reasons, to (hew the importance
of taking immediate measures to amend and »
meliorate the law: if thii is not don*, faidhe,
it will fan&ion the idea, already entertained by
many of the refpe&afcle citizens of the Union,
that there is a disinclination, on the part of ma
ny members of the legislature, to provide for an
ufFedtive militia—that a neceflity may be indu*
ced for a (landing army. He adverted to the
injufticc of the requisition, which enjoins, that
a man who is not worth twenty (hillings, ftiould
incur an expence of twenty pounds, fti equip
ping himfelf as a militia man.
Mr. Murray's motion, for a committee, was
negatived; fourteen members, only, rising in
the affirmative.
IVednefday, November 21.
The petition of John Sinclair
others was read, praying a settlement M
their accounts for public services—Laid
on the table.
Mr. Lee moved for the order of the
day on the fubje£t of loft certificates.—
This motion was w ayed, to take into con-
the report of the Committee of
the whole on the Prefidcntfs speech. The
several relolutions agreed to by the com
mittee were read,-; but the house being
thin their consideration was deferred.
Mr. Murray called for the resolution which
he laid on the table yesterday, " that a com
mittee be appointed to repeal that clause of
the militia Jaw which relates to the arming
the milita t: is being read,
Mr. Murray said he ilill bad hopes, though
hir. iirft motion the day before had failed.—
The present motion was to repeal the clause
which he hoped to prove obnoxiou^—as it
•was more limited than the former one—and
as he did not mean by this to £o into a general
revilion of the whole law, out confine the re
pca> and fnbftitute to the arming claufe,he ima*
gined many gentlemen Would frpport his in
tentions, who yesterday were averse to open
ing the whole law to revision. The clause in
question was obnoxious to his constituents —a
late and most intimate knowledge of his dif
tr"usl had enabled him with great confidence
to fay so ; and he had reason to believe that
unlets an alteration in the law took place, no
a6t of the legislature of Maryland would give
it the desired operatien in fhat llatc. The
clause was difagrceable to his constituents,
becanfe it was oppreflive in principle, and im
practicable in its operation. It was a princi
p'e of political justice which no occasion couid
dispense with, that prote&ion and taxation
should be commensurate* That wherever a
ta'x was levy'd for the protection of fodct},
its apportionment among individuals should
be as exa<stly as polTibls porrefpondent with
tlfe property of each individual. There is «*
much justice in this, that he did notJnppo.e it
would be controverted. The opprcilion t. at
will be felt in the operation of this clau.e,
flows from the violation of that princip c.
The obligation to arm in a particular man
ner, as it vill produce a uniform expence on
men of unequal property, m ill prove a tax
that will ast unjustly, becai.fe unequally—
m~n will not pay agreeably so their propei ty.
To illustrate this iseafy, and the plaineftmode
of the truth. By the law, he who s
past his forty-fifth vear, is exempt from mi
litia duty. It mull: often happen that men
of large fortune will thus contribute nothins
toward- thi species of ftfotrftion, v.mle the
man of very fmali fortune will be obl-.ged to
futnifli largelyto if, if the father of a family
capable and of age to hear anus, lor tne
fake of harmonv ai d a ready clifpriitwn to fall
into a patriotic impul'e, he much doubted
whether his constituents povM have mur
mured much at the violation ot the principal
%
•#