CONGRtJib. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, March 14. Deoate on Mr. Livingften's resolution continued. Mr. Bourne's Speech—concluded. It appeared clearly, (Mr. Bouri'e l *c<yitended) from the debates he had read, that th ere was only one opinion in the convention of North Carolina in relation to the treaty making power being vetted in the President and Senate, and that treaties made by them were the supreme law of the land* fubjeft to ho check or controul frora the *House of Repre sentatives. If such an idea had been entertained, would not those who in that convention were in fa vor of adopting the Constitution, and who almost despaired of its being adopted, have said in reply to those who objected against the investiture of this power in the President and Senate, " your rights are fafe, the House of Rcprefentatives mult ratify commercial treaties before they can be carried into effeit ?" But this was not said ; on the contrary, 1 it was said that the power of making treaties was •exclusively vetted in the President and Senate, that it was right and proper it Ihould be so vetted, and that the fntall dates in the Convention which form ed the Constitution wft>uld not agree to give any part of the treaty making power to the House of Representatives. That the nature of the treaty power Shewed the propriety of placing it where it ■was placed : the numbers of the Senate were small, and mod fit for this business, more so than a nome- T*us body where fa&ion and party might prevail. That the power of making tieaties was vetted in the Senate, becanfe it were a branch of the sove reign power, These obfer.ations had been made in the Convention of Norlh-Garelina, Now, he asked, if this was the eonftruftion of the Confti u tion when it was adopted into the several states, would it not be a trick on the small states now to eonftrue it differently, and fay that no treaty was the law of the land until ratified by the House of Representatives? He considered that the (late which he had the honor to leprefent would be of that opinion ; he said it would be a gross violation efthe constitution to maintain, that the President and Sinate could no" make tieaties without the as font of the Hoafe. But he did not consider this principle as involved in the motion before the com mitlee : it was a qjeftion of expediency : the Pre fident wasalked by it for the inflrudtion to his mi nifters and all other documents refpe<stwg the trea ty' except only such as related to any emitting nego tiation ; he thought the alteration in the original motion which was made by introducing the excep tion, had made it more objettioual ; it was faying, *' fend us all the papers this oegociation, excepting one particular description of them winch •We think you ought not to fend." Nothing was left to the discretion of the President. Did any gentleman ever before hear of an executive being called on for the confidential inftrpftioiu which he had given his minister in relation to a foreign nego tiation, for the correspondence between himfelf and his minister, and for that which passed between the tsvaminifters reprefeming the neg6ciating parties ? Was it not natural for gentlemen to consider that muck Cnnfirl*»ntird nartimiinlonti'un—*trkTS ptßCc 7UTV these occasions, which ought not to be disclosed but to the immediate parties concerned ? The agcncy of private individuals might have been used in ef fe&ing the treaty, and was it proper that their names Ihould be published ? with the fa&s he was perfedlly unacquainted. The committee would rea dily suppose he knew nothing of the secrets of the negociation, jf such there were: but he thought there might be many, and they ought not to be divulged. Mr. Bourne added, that he believed the call f or such papers to be wholly unpreceJented.— Just before the adoption of the prefeut government in France, a treaty had been negotiated through the agency of the committee of fafety with Spain. It is well known that strong obje&ions were raised in the Convention, who then had the power of ra tifying treaties, against giving their consent to that ; and though it was the fubjeAof much debate, the inttruftions and correspondence of the negcciitor were not called for. Suppose the President fjiould be disposed to communicate the papers ip question, it would probably be under an Injun<Stion of fecre cy. Did the Heufe mean to debate on the treaty with closed doors ? he conceived not. But if the papers were not to be disclosed to the public, they would not conduce to allay the publicrfonfibility in refpeft. to treaty, which had been assigned as one motive for calling for therfi, though.he did not think it real, so; he thought the addresses which had been made to the pafiions in the debate were calculated to increase instead of allaying any ftfifi. bility which may have existed : a gentleman had said that be difapprored of the treaty, insomuch that the minister who negotiated it, ought to be sent again as minister plenipotentiary to repeal it, if that waT the only proper mode to get rid of it. The lame gentleman who said this, also said, if he adored any thing in this world, it was the voice of the people, and that their voice was against the treaty. Mr. Bourne said, he refpefted the voice of-the; people, but where were they to find the voice of the people? That- gentleman had referred to the petitions on the table. How many had petitioned against the treaty ? Were there as many as were ne. "ceflary to choose one RepresentatiVe in that house : No, not half so many. \Vas this then the voice of j the people ? He thought the voice of the people was to be collected from the diminutive appearance of the petitions themfclve?. The inference was strongly in favour of the voice of the people being , with the treaty, when it was considered what pains had been taken to gain petitioners ; he thought al so the voii:e of the people was to he collected from the proceedings of the (late legiflaturts, in relation to the conduit of the Prefnlent and Senate in rati fying the treaty. He stated that the several branch es of the Legislature of New Hamplhlre had been unanimous in their ixpreflions of approbation. In Massachusetts a similar spirit had been Shewn. The General. Assembly of Rhcde-lfland bad been una nimous and explicit in their approbation of the con oid! »f the PreliJent and Senate. The unanimity >f Conna&icut on this fuftjeft was well'known. The address at the meeting of the legislature of New-York had breathed a similar spirit, those ot Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maiyland also; the latter had been unanimous in their resolutions of approbation and confidence. He Would not travel a.iy further, some fen iments of a contrary complex ion had been expretfed to the South. The gentle man had referred to the sensibility which had been exhibited in the town meetings. Mr. Bourne ac knowledged that much diflatisfaflion with the trea ty had been (hewn in most of the populous towns, he believed however from recent appearances it was much abated. The people had been deceived - iti their expectations in refpeft to the treaty hy several publications before the treaty arrived; having ex aggerated its advantages, and -dated that every thing was obtained which had been asked for. Mr. Bourne said he should not give his ideas of the treaty at present, they would be reserved for a metre proper time ; he believed that in obeying the Con ftitutioiij they should obey the voice of the people j ■f a doubt cxifled as to what was the $rue conduc tion at the Conilitution he believed it ought to be conformed to the opinion which prevailed when the Conflitution was adopted, and he had (hewn that the moil eminent men had then but one opinion in relation to it ; they all agreed that the power ef making treaties was veiled exclusively in the Prefi deot and Senate. Mr. Bourne concluded by ob fs-rving that he had not intended to have carried h»« obfei vations to so great a length, but as the (late which he represented was particularly interest ed in the consequences of the principles which had been advanced, he had be»n the more lengthy. lo dged he did not confid?r these principles as necefTa rily involved in the question now before the com mittee, but he confided, that whate/ei migiu be the fate of this quedion, from the knowledge he had of the members of the committee, that when they should l Otnt to decide on the question of parrying the treaty into effedJ, they would duly refpeft the faered obligations they were under to fuppart the Conftitutiou. debates of the north-Carolina convention Referred to by Mr. BoUrni. Mr. Leko r. I have a greater objeflion on this (round than that which has jutt been mentioned. I mean, fir, the legislative power framed to the President himfclf Umay be ad mired by Tome but not by me. He, fir, is to make treaties which are to bethe lupremc law of the land. This is a legiflaive power given to the President, and implies a contraifi&ion to that part which fays that all legislative power is vested in the tw,o houles Mr. Spaicht (a membtr of the Cntmiitn which firmed the Conjiitution) answered that it was though: better to put that p >wer into the hands oi the Senators as Repiefentatives df the Hates, that thereby the imereit of every itate was equally at tended to in the formation oi treaties, but that it was aot ctinfHered as a Logtflauve at alt. Mr. Maclaine—l h i treaties were the supreme law of the land in all countries for the in., it obvious leafiins. That laws or leg fla. ive aQs operated upon Individuals but thai treaties a&t-d upon Hates, That unless they were the su preme law of tae land thev could have no validity at all. That the President did not afl in tilts Cafe as a legislator but rather in his executivecapaeity. Mi 1 . La -oi r.—He still thought the President was pofieft ed of legillative powers while he could make treaties joined with the Senate, Mr. I RtDELti When T rcauet are made tiey become ai valid as cgiflauve a6ls. 7 apprehend that eve*y a£l ot the go vernment, legiflatite, executive or judicial, it in pui iuancc of a conflituttonal power is the law of the land. Mr f" ■ i r. Thtix i A «pwwet v c lied in he President and Senate to make Treaties which ihdll the lupremc law of the land. Which ffmong us can call them to account ? | always thought there could be no proper cxcrcife of power witho.it the fuffrage of the people. Yet the House of Repre fen a lves has no power to intermeddle with ireatiei. The Prrlidentand.feven >enators as nearly at i can remember can make a treaty which will be of great advantage to the North* ern ftatesand equal injury to the Southern states. They might give up the rivers and territory of the Southern states yet in the preamble of the Conltitu ion they fay all the people have done it. I fhouid be glad to isuow what- power there it of calling the President .vid Senate to account. Mr. Spaigh r anlwcred that under the Confederation two thirds of the states might make treaties. That if the Senat. on from all the llates attended when a treaty wasabout to be made,, two thiids of the llatct would have a voice in itt for mation He added, he would be glad to ask the gentleman what modethere was of calling the present Con iels to ac count. Mr. Porte r repeated hit objection. He hoped that gen tlemen would not impose on the house. That the President could make ,rca ies with two thirds ot the Senate. Tnat the President in ihat cafe voted rather in a legiflativc than an exe cutive capacity, which he tnought impolitic. Gov. JoHNtTON. lu my opinion if there be any differ ence bttween the nnftuulion and the Confederation with refpefit to treat <t the Conftitutioo it more fafe than the Con ledira.ton. We know that two members from each state have a right by the Confederation to give ihp vote of that Bate, and two thirds of the states have a right alfoto make,tre*Ucs. fly this Conftitntiw two thirds of the Senators cannot makt Treaties without the concurrence of the President. Mr. Port t R. — l'hat at treaties were the supreme law of the land, the House of Representatives ought to have; m rote in making them at well as in patting them. Mr. Davie. On a due confederation of thit claafe, itap pers that this power could not have been lodged as fafcly any where else as where it is. The honorable gentleman {Mr. M- Diwall) has ipoken of a consolidation in this government. This it a very strange inconsistency, when he pointtout.at the (ainc time the necessity of lodging the power of making trea ties with the Reprefttntatives, where the iada of a consolida tion can alone exist; and when heobjrfts to placing it in the Senate, where the federal principle is completely preserved. As the Senate represents the sovereignty of the llates, what ever might afftft the states in their political capacity, ought to be left to them. T his is the certain means of preventing a consolidation. How extremely abfu'd it itto call thai dilpp fuion at power a consolidation of the ltatet which mult (trail eternity preveDt it. I have only to add the principle upon which the general convention went —That the power of mak ing treaties cotild 110 where be so fafely lodged at in the Pre sident and Senate; and the extreme jealousy fubfiftmg between lomtof the states would not admit of it ellewhere. If any mart will examine the opera! ion of that jealousy, in bit own bieaft asa citizen of Nortel Carolina, he will (oon feel the.in flexibility that results from it, and perhaps be induced to ac knowledge the propriety of this arrangement, -. Mr M Dowall declared thai he was of tbe fame opini on as before, and that he believed the observations which the gentleman had made on tne apparent inconiiltericy ol his re marks, would have very iittje weight with the Committee Tiiai giving fueh extensive powers to so tew men in the Senate was extitmely dangerous ; and that he was not the more re conciled to it trom nsbeing brought about by o the Imall, pitiful Itates to the north. He supposed, that eight membets in the Senate from those states, with the Piefi dt hi, might do he molt importanl-a&s. Mr. laiDiii. It this power be improperly veiled, it is incumbent on grntlemcn to itil us iu what body it tou tl be more fafely and properly lodged. I believe, on a serious cnufiUeralion, it will be found that it ,was nfceiTaty, (or the realons mentioned by the gentleman flora Halifax, to velt tnc power in theSena e, or in lome other hady reprefentin > e <jualiy ihe lovcreigoty of the (la let, and that the power, at given in the Constitution, is not likely to b attended wltH the evil* which some gentlemen apprehend. The only real fctur ity of liberty in any country, la the jealoufv and circumspec tion of the peopl# themfelyet. Lei iliem be water,ful over their rulers. Should the) find a combination againti their li berties, and all other methods appear lalufficient to preietve them, they have, think. god, an okimate remrdy. Tint power which create*! the governiitent, can dcltro/ it. Should :be government, on trial, betound to want amendments. thof<; amendments Can be mad * in a regular m 'hod, in a mo ale prc fcribed by the Conltumion itielf Mdlfjchuleus, Sou h Ca rolina, New Hampshire, and Virginia, ha.-e ai! a mcudrncn's; but they all concuired in the neceflhyot an tin media e adoption, .-i con&uutional mode et altering tn Conltiiution itfelf, is, perhaps, what ha. never been * among mankind before. We have ilus security, >» auditioi to the natural watchfulnefs of the pcojje, which. I hope wi| never be found wanting The obj' tiioru I fiavc anfwere< deserve all pollible at en ion, and. tor ray *Jar« I fball alway refpe& that jealousy which aries rrom a pub ic liberty Mr. Spcncty. I think thai no aigfanc/ii can be ufpd t< shew that this power is proper. ff cue wnole legislative bo. dy—if the House ps Representative* do not interfere in mak tng treaties, I think theyought at leait to have the fan&ion o wholr Senate The XXIII. Amendment ptft*>o/"ci hy the Convention to b< i f r- / be made m ifcie Conttittotw. That no Treaties which lhall be direfttv opposed to the exifling laws ot the United States in Congress aflembied, fhill be valid ur.tij such laws fh-ill be repealed, or made conforma ble to such treaty ; nor (bail any treaty be valid which is cou tradi&ory to the Constitution of the United States* Mr. Bloodwoath dfued to be informed wheiher trea ties were not to he fubtnitted to th> Parliament it) Great Bri tain belore they were valid. , Mr. Ikeqell. A gentleman from New Hanover has asked whether it is not the praihee in Gteat Bn'ain tofubmit treaties to Parliament belore tlieyare eltcemed valid, Ihe king has the lolc authority, by.the laws of tha country, to make trea. ties. After treaties are made, they are fiequently difcufTcd n the two houfrs of parliament; wherr,'of late years, the mod important tneafures ol government have been narrowly examimd It isufuai to move lor an addrefsot approbation; and such has Wen the complaifarice of Parliament for a long time, that this seldom hath been withheld. Sometimes they pals an a£l in conformity 10 the treaty made : but this I be lieve is not for the mtte piftp ;f. of confirmation, but to make alterations in a oarucular ljfLm, whico the change of cir cnmltances requires. The coi>fti:utional powt. ot making treaties is veiled m the crown ; and the power with whom a treaty is made, conhders it as binding without any aft of par liament, unlcfs an alteration b> such is provided for in the treatvitlel', which I believe is sometimes the cafe. When the treaty of peace was made in 17631 it contained flipula. tions lor the surrender of some islands to the Ftench. The iflaqds were given up, 1 believe, without any a£t of Parlia ment The power of making treaties is very important, and mullbevefledfjmewheic, in order to couuteradi the designs of other countries, and to be able tu term inate a war whenit is begun. Were it known that our government was weak, two or more European powers might, combine against us. Would it not be politic to have fomepower in this country, to obviate this difficulty by a treaty? If this power was inju dtcioufly limited., the uatioos where the power was poltdsed without reftriftion, would have greatly the advantage of us 111 ntgociation ; and every one mult know, according to m )- dern policy, of what moment an advantage innegociation is. The honorable member from Anfon said, that the accumula tion of all the different branches of power in the Senate, would be dangerous. The experience of other countries (hews that this tear is without foundation. What is the Se nate of Great Biitaio, o,;po!'ed to the House of Commons, although it be compoltd of an hereditary nobility, ot vast fortunes, and eutiiely independent ol the people ? Their weight is far inferior to that of the Commons. Here is a strong inffance of the accumulation of (lowers of the different branches of government without producing any inconvenience, that-Senate, fir, is a separate branch of the legislature, is the great cenftnutional council of the crown, and decides on livesayd fortunes in impeachments, belides being the ultimate tribunal for trying controversies refpeQing private rights. Would t not appear that all thi fe things should render them moretorm.daole than the other Yet the Commons have generally bein able to carry every thing belore them. / - NEW THEATRE. EVENING, Monday, April 4, „ Will be presented, A celebrated COMEDY", (never performed here) written by Mr. Murphy, called All in the Wrong. Sir John ReAleij, Mr. Wbitlock, Beverley, Mr. Moreton, Sir William Bellmont, Mr. kartell, Young Bellmont, Mr. Green, Mr. Blandford, Mr. Francis, Robert, Mr. Beete, Biuih, Mr. BiiJ/ett, Richard, Mr. Mitchell, James, Mr. Warrel, jup. John, Mr. Darley. jun. Lady Reft left, Mrs. Wbitlock, Belinda, Mrs. Morris, Clariila, Tattle, Tippet, Marmaitt, To which will be added, A COMIC OPE RA, called No Song no Supper. Frederick, Mr. Marjhall 'uileft El. Mr. Har<wood, Thoma>, Mr. Bliffett, Robin, Mr. Bates, William, Mr. Darley, jun. Sailors £ Meflri. !Varrell,)\ia. Morgan, Mitch ' ( ell, Beetee, &c. Dorothy, Leuifa, Margaretta, Nelly, gT The Public are refpacflfwlly informed, that the Doors of the Theatre will open at a quarter after. FIVE o'clock, and the Curtain rife precisely at a quarter after SIX —until further notice. BOX, One Dollar—Pl r, Three-Fourths of a Dollar— and GALLERY, Halt a Dollar. Plain for the Boxes to be taken of Mr. Wells, at the Front of the Theatre: . TICKETS to be had at H. aud P. RICE's Book-Store. No. 50, Market-Street; and at the Office adjoining the The ttre. No money or ticket! to be returned ; nor any person, on aßy account whMfoever, admitted behind (he fc.nea. Ladisj and Gentlemen are requelled to fend their servants to keep places a quarter before five o'clock, and order them at loon as the company is seated, to withdraw; as they can not, on auy accouut, be permitted to remain. THE UNDERSIGNEDj INTENDING to leave Philadelphia in a few days, in forms the Public that his business will be carried on as usual at his Office, at Mr. Kids, Higb-ftreet, from nine o'clock till two every day, where those having demands against him, are requeftcd to apply. Philadelphia, April a To the Public. AT MR. O'ELLER', HOTEL, A French Miniature Painter refp.c&fnlly offers his ser vice« to the Public, and hopes that the moderation of his term*, the very frwrt time of his fittings, and the rate of bis abilities, will induce hi» visitors to heroine his patrsDs. Mr*. Francis, Mrs. Ro-iu/on, Miss Oldjield, Mrs. Har-vey. Mr*. Shaw, Mist Raw/on, Mrt. Oldmixan, Miss miUnu. VIVAT RESFUBUCA. fjAMES SWAN. •»t. Feb. ae, < if i 'foreign Iat > Mugeace. Feb. 6. ! havy (hewn a »erjr i^. ancc of theii itfpcc\ ! v»r.tLc .Vucrican Printed intti ufiions have beei- fe»t t<. all p.,, Admiralt, intormtng them, ttiat P. Bond, Esq. C l >arjrt d'Affaires at Philadelphia, had granted cer ti6<rale«to American ship« carrying goods to land, to pay,lhe American loan* there jaud deiir ifig them nottodctain a»y ihjpsTuint/hed with .fiich certificated Tq the Editor of tie Morning Chronicle. Sir, The Epitaph on Dr. Johnfen, is not minr Some years ft nee a similar audacity, concersiug that epitaph, obliged me to mdkethe fame public dif. avowal. I fiiould be glad to have been the Author of lines at once so beautiful and just ; but they proceeded from a more eminent ptn. The tran fcrtption you received and printed was not accurate. If I may triiil my memory i; ought to have ilood thus:— The groans o" Learning tell that Johnson dies Adieu, rough Critic, of Coloflal size ! Grateful, ye Virtues, rriund his grave attend, And boldly guard your energetic Friend. Ye Vices, keep aloof! a for to you ; Yet one, the subtlest of your tribe, he knew ; In silence, Envy, to his fame bejuft, And tho' yoy ftain'd his spirit, ("pare his dust ! ANNA SEWARD, THE PRESENT HOLT 'VS.R.U! [from mx. Morgan's excellent issat.] Debt incur *d by the prefint War, from the year '795 '® 1796, inclusive. Principal. An. Int. Stock in the 3 per centj. in 1793 £6.250,000 >87,500 Ditto * _ in 179$ *11,000,000 330,000 Ditto in Feb 1795 18,000,000 j, 0,000 Di'to in Dec. 1735 26,100,000- 783,000 Stock in the 4 per cents, io 1794 2,730,000 iioooo '^ lU ° in Feb. 1795 £in o®s Navy Debt funded in the 5 pr. cts. in 1791, - - . 1949,330 l> ''to ditto in 1795, 3,012,040 An annuity 0f61,79i1. for66year» - An annuity 0f85,j 001. for 65 year» in Feb. 1795, Anannuity of 58,500!.f0r64year» in Dec. 1795, Whole Ann. 106,7911. worth 41. 13s. 6d. per „ , , . , 78.350,270 2,595,36° hmperor sloan in the 3 per cents • - m 179,5, - . 3,833,333 115,000 Ditto, an Ann. of 230,0001. in 1795 worth ... 3,310,441 Funded debt and itsintereft.exclu five of management, - £35,501,044 £2,940,360 UNFUNDED DEBT. Principal. Navy Debt, £. ,000,000 Vote of credit for the Extraordina niriiis of the army any navy, 4,000,000 A debt not paid by the E. I. Com. pany, but taken as part of the Supplies, in 1794 and 1795 Exchequer Bills Unfunded debt and interest at S . pe . r fl*: * " J 6,000,000 800,000 Funded debt and interest - 3.5,504,044 *,940,^ Total of the debt, and the ann al expence attending it, cxclufive of management, - £-101,504,0 4 4 <C3.740^6. In consequence of the forced loan, the follow ing Letter has been received from the famous Ge neral Miranda, by the Adminiftratorg of 'the De partmcnt of the Seine : citizens, I this day leceived a noties of the forced loan, decreed on the 19th Frimaire, the 4th year of the Republic, slating, that, <• Citizen Miianda, Gen u eral, /hall pay the sum of 1100 livres in specie." It appears that this is in my capacity, as French " Citisten and General," that this tax is imposed upon me, it being clear that otherwifc the law could not attach. But 1 mull remark to you, Ci tizens, that, so little focurity have 1 for poffeffionof those precjous titles, that a short time ago an Arret of the Executive Power disputed my right to them by lubliituting the description of " Foreigner." It is likewise true, that, in consequence of my ap peal, the Dirediory seem to have abandoned their decision, and in some degree to have acknowled ged their error with refpeft to me : but it is bo less certain, that, while there exists a doubt, e quity, and even juttice, demand the provifjonal lulpenfion of the payment ofthe tax. Under whatever description they may finally re, cognise me (confeious that they cannot, without a violation of justice, treat me as a Foreigner) I has ten to acquiesce in the requisition, and hereby put into your hands documents for the above f«m, that you may make good the payment. lam but too happy in being still able to afford the Republic this proof of my sincere attachment to its happiness and stability, even under the circumltancee of ertibar raf»ment which I at present experience in my pri vate affairs. In coafequence, by the present letter, I autho rise the National Treasury to remit into your hands the sum of 2100 hvres in specie, on account-os funis ittll more coniulerablc belonging to me, the payment of which has been ordered by a mandate of the united Committees of Public Safety and Fi nances, dated 10th 1 hermidor, 3d year, of which I here subjoin the copy, as well as the Certificates of the nation, frrving as a ground for themandate. From Mefnil, lßih NivolV, 4th year 'of the Republic. (Signed.) CITY OF WASHINGTON, March »6. A correfpttndent, at Philadelphia informs, us " that Corigrefs will not rife until the second week in June." He also mentions that "in the civil and military departments, the different officers are conitantly and actively employed in making the nereflary arrangements for taking pofleffion of the Wettern posts, which the British are to relinqmlh gtenable to treaty, on the lft of Jane next." If i I I 91A* 6 1 uo.bos 61,7*9 » 85,j00 jS-vSiQD 4,»88^OO 430,009 Aa.IM. 1,000,000 6,000,000 MIRANDA.
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