CONGRESS. PHILADELPHIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, MONDAY, November 21, i 79 r - Debate on the Ratio oj Representation. (COSTIK 'J ID.) MR. MACO moved rbs t the firll lection be amended, by infertitlg the word five after the word thousand. Mr. Bourne (R..1.) obfl-i ved that she gentle man did not advert to thr amendment to the conllitution, which proposes that the number of jeprefentatives flial! amount to ioo—this amend ment will inoft probably be accepted, and then Nve fliall have to repeal the proposed law, (hould it be enacted. He was in favor of 34,000, be cause that would be conformable to the amend ment —and he law no good reason why the ie prefentation (hould exceed 100 —that nunibcr will be fully competent to express the wills, wishes and ideas of the people—and he favv no neceflity to burthen their conilituents with the additional expence of thirteen additional members. Mr. Macon laid lie did not conceive that the amendment referred to was to be a guide to the house till it was fully ratified—and as it was un certain whether it ever would be, we ought not to be swayed by it on this occal'ion. Mr. Sedgwick expredbd himfelf in favor of 34,000, as it was the opinion of the people from that part of the country which he represented, that the number of rcpiefentatives in this house jhould not exceed icq. Mr. Lawrance said that the qtieflion had been so fully debated, that he did not think the opi nion of a single member would be changed by all that can be said —he wilhed therefore that every proposed amendment should be put, and the quel tion taken 011 each with as little debate as pciiible, Mr. White advocated the clause—he was in fa vor of one representative to 30,000 persons. The queltion now is, (aid lie, whether the people shall have that 'hare of influence in the government to which they are emitled by the conftitutiot), which plainly contemplates one representative for every 30,000 peifons. He wifliedto preserve the independency of the several parts of the go vernment. Corruption has been mentioned — lie wished it might never take place—but the pre sent, lie conceived, was the time to guard against it.—He would not fay that any undue measures had ever yet been taken to influence the house— but that it was the wish of fotne to innovate, was apparent, from some attempts which had been made to encreale the importance of the execu tive—from the predilection for titles anddiuiric tions which the journals of the Senate would fliew Hill exilled. He hoped that the proposed ratio would be eftabliihed, as more consonant to the spirit of the conßitmion than any winch had been mentioned. Ihe independence of the Se nate cannot be afFei/ted by the number of this house—they will always have a negative 011 our atTts. Mr. Dayton said that-be fhouJd be iit favor of the amendment, not becanfeit was a number the inoft agreeable to him, for heconfcfled that even this would have produced a more numerous re presentation than J-e could have wiihed, but be catile a greater number would be less likely to meet the approbation of the commirtee. He a greed with the- member from Virginia, (Mr. White) in one of his declarations only, which was, that this queltion was of greater moment thaw'the gentlemen who advocated thirty thou sand (the largest representation) leem to have "conceived. He agreed, he said, wirli the gentle man from New-York, (Mr. Lawrance) that this fubje(ft had undergone a pretty full discussion, but he at the fatiie time believed that some new light might It ill be rhrowfcupen it. There was one'point of view, Mr. Dafßivobferved, in which it had not yet been exhibited by any gentlemen in the course of debate, but in which, 011 account of its magnitude and importance, it ought to be critically «xafnined. The Senate, he said, were co'nfidered as the representatives of the States, or of the State governments —The Holife of Re prcfeniatives were fuppufed to contain, under certain' qualifications, a pure representation of the people—Such was the apportionment of its members with refpeft to the unequal diltriots or states into which this country was divided, as to give the three great flares a very predominant influence upon that iloor. They had only to combine their ftrengrh, and to afl'ociate almost any one of the other eleven Hates with them, in erder to ensure success to any favorite projctft that they might have in view. lie was aware, that it would be answered by gentlemen, that such combination was not likely to take place between itates io dilfant in point of situation, and differing in local intesefls and circDinflances. He had been ever flow, lie (aid, in the prediction of evil but reafoiling from the temper and dis position of man, and judging from part observa tion and experience, he would venture to pro nounce, without any pretenlions to the fpirir of prophecy, that ti>e gieat Itates would thus coin bine their influence, whenever they fliould deem it for their advantage, and that the mterefts of the other ftatcs would of coiiiequence necoitie the facrifice. Those Itates then that arethusex pofed, of which number he considered at leaf! two thirds of those which now formed tlie union, would find their only security and protection a gainst the effeifts of such combination in the Se naie. Would it, he alked, be confident with prudcnce or with fafety, for those very dates to a (lent to a measure directly lending to weaken, if not destroy that security ? Even now, he laid, the Senate would have need of ail its firmnefs in continuing to oppose any adit, in the carrying of which the House (hould be determined to per severe. But what, he enquired, would be the consequence, when the encreafe so ardently wish ed for by many gentlemen (hould have taken place. Would the Senate have fortitude enough, even where they thought they had just cause, ItedfalHy to cotinteradt the will and determined purpose of a body confiding of two hundred mem bers, boaiting to derive their appointments from a purer, and from the purelt fource,calling tliein felves the representatives of the great body of the people, and profeffing to speak the lenfe of their constituents ? Let 30,000 be adopted as the ratio of represent ation, and he hesitated not, he said, to declare that whenever the representatives lhould think proper to resolve any important point of dispute into a question of firninefs between the two Hous es, the Senate inuft yield to their superior weight and flirink from the unequal contest. In the e vent of their defeat in a fiiigle inllance, the in dependence of that branch would be materially affected, and the legislative balance ihaken in its centre. These dangers, Mr. Dayton further observed, were by no means imaginary, but would too soon be realized, if the House continued to encreafe by fifties in the manner they were beginning. If the motion under consideration for encreaf ing the ratio, and levelling the number of re presentatives, ihould prove unfuccefsful, their reliance, he said, would then be upon the Senate. Th:it body, he was sure, was too mindful of their own privileges and importance, to make a volun nry and deliberate surrender of their indepen dence—rhey were too regardful of the interests of their conftitucms, to aflent to ail- atfl giving an undue weight to that branch of the legiflarure in which the great dates had such unreasonable influence. If, however, in this his lad reliance, he.lhould be disappointed, and the bill be likely to, pais both Uoufes, he hoped the yeas and nays would be entered upon tlvejournals, that it might be known hereafter, when.the events hehad pre dicted /hould have taken place, who it was that had thus given up the union to the controul of three oy four of its members, who were the men that had voted for the extraordinary encreafe of one ,branch, at the expence of the independence of,the other, and thereby destroyed that equili brium of the government, upon the preservation of which, the faireft hopes of its well-wilhers were founded. Mr. Gerry contended that the conftirotion was misconstrued by the gentleman from N Carolina, and in reply to the gentleman from New. Jersey, he laid he was furprizcd to hear the remarks which he made when he recolletfted his being a member of the convention—in which it mutt be remembered by that gentleman, that the larger States contented to placing the small States on a par with them in the Senate, to obviate the dif ficulty which the smaller States objected against ihe large representations from the'larger States. He.laid the independence of the Senate is secur ed by the Constitution—and he was not appre henlive that the encreafe proposed would over whelm that branch of the government, or leden their importance, or /hake their firiiinefs. The gentleman had talked of combinations in the lar ger States—but. he preiumed no fatfts could be produced to support such an apprehension. The proposed encreafe in the representation is founded on the principles of justice and equity, it is Strictly agreeable to the spirit and delign of the Constitution, which contemplates ah encreafe m Tome degree proportionate to the encreafed population of the States—he hoped therefore that the Constitution would be fairly and honorably carried into effeift. Mr. Boudinot was not yet convinced, from all the arguments he had heard, that by rncreafing the number of representatives to i r 3, as proposed by the bill, the wants, ,wilhes and interests of the lr coriftituentSj would be more fully embraced, 250 than by adopting the amendment then utul., consideration. It had not yet been taken iuu, the account, that a certain species of property v, three or four of the States ((laves) would be rc prefcnted in the next Congress, if the bill paJi'eU by at lealt 12 members, above the proportion of other States, whole property (tliough of lupcrio,- value) was not entitled by the Conttitution t 0 any representation at all.—Tliathedid not mean to find fault with the Conltitution in this refpec't but to make it tiie rule ®f his conduct althou<r|[ in the conltruction of it, he would not incre.u'e the evil when two extremes were given, and the intermediate number was optional.—He had laid and he reltcd on the Conftitutioti for i!ie proof that it contemplated one member for each State as the low elf, and the ratio of one for 30,000 per sons as the highell numbers. That the Conven tion in fettling the present Houfeof Representa tives, without a precife,knowledge of tlieamounc of rhe citizens of the Union, had done it in a cer tain proportion to the number of Senators,which he hat' thought a good rule to go by, till thepro pofed amendment to the Constitution was ratified by three-fourths of the States—but as gentlemen seemed to think that this would soon take place he had consented to agree to tiie ratio of 34,000 which would give too members.—This would ac cord with the spirit of the amendment to the Conititution, and prevent the necelfityof passing any other act when the amendment should be completed. —He wns therefore in favor of in- after thirty, or any ratio that would confine the number of representatives to 100, or under. Mr. Lawrance remarked, in answer to Mr. Dayton's objetftions. that the States were dispro portionate refpe<fting territory, and consequently were so as to the number of people. That an equality would take place amonglt the people of the several States by the ratio proposed, although more members would come from foine States than from others. He mentioned that every member of the House of Representatives flood i/i relation to the people of America, and ought to consult the intereit of the whole, and not the particular intereff of the State in which he was eletfted. Should this general principle operate, and which he supposed ought to actuate each member, 110 danger was to be apprehended from a combina tion, as the general good was the objecft of con sideration. It this (hould not be the prevailing principle, it might be the inrereft of the States to have as great a number of representatives as could be obtained—yet he supposed, unless a di vilion of territory rook place, the people in each State would be entitled to be represented in pro portion to the numbers in each—and the danger that it was supposed would exill, could not be readily remedied. He also: observed, that he imagined the Senate would not be fubjedlto the influence suggested. The Senate was an inde pendent part of the Legillature, and would de cide all questions that came before them, as the judgments of the. members will ditftate. Salons; as a reciprocal negative exilled, as to the aifts of either branch of the Legislature, he hoped wfc ftiould find firninefs in each to decide properly. The Senate had frequently rejetfied the bills of the house, and had amended others—some very important ones—and the influence of the mem bers of the House of Representatives did not ope rate 011 their decisions.—The objection to the proportion not being agreeable to the amend ment proposed to the Conllitution, he observed, was unfounded.-^-He explained his ideas refpeift ing the nature of the amendment, and concluded that the proportion was conformable to it—and observed, that the nature of the amendment was contemplated, when the proportion refpetfiing the ratio was made. WEDNESDAY, November 30. The hill sent from the Senate, conccrning consuls and vice-con fnls, was read a firlt and second time, and referred to a committee of the whole on Tuelday next, —100 copics ordered to be printed. A letter ftom the attorney-general of the United States to the Speaker was corrtmunicated to the House. The attorney-general intovms. that'he has Something additional to propofc relative to the judiciary system, which he thinks can best be brought before the House as modifications to his report. He Submits to the House the propriety of permitting him to communicate this to the com mitted to whom his report may be referred, rather than introduce it to the House in the form of an additional report. On motion of Mr. Sedgwick, the committee of the whole were discharged Irom further proceeding on the report of the attorney general, on the fubje£l of the judiciaiy lyftern ; which was then, on motion, referred to a committee of seven, confidingof the fol lowing members, viz. Messrs. Sedgwick, Hillhoute, Lawrance, Boudinot, Kittera, Murray and Madison. A bill conccrning the regifteringand recording of vefiels, was read a firft and second time, referred to a committee of the whole on Tucfday next, and 100 copics ordered to be printed. Mr. Bourne (R. 1.) presented memorials from the distillers ot rum and gin, of the town of Providence, against the diftilied lpl - a£h Referred to the Secretary of the Treasury. Mr. Lawrance moved a resolution to this effe£l, that a commit tee be appointed to bring in a bill declaring the extension of the relolution of Congress, of Aug. 1780, rclpefcling the widows and orphan children of officers, who were killed or have died in the ferviceof the Uuited States, and for the examination of the clairrv® of invalids, See, the rcfolve of the 1 nil of June, 1788, notwit standing : which was read and ordered to lie on the table. The House proceeded to consider the amendments reported ) the committee of the whole, to the bill making compensation t® widows, orphans and invalids in ccrtain cales, some of whic weredifagreed to, and others agreed to with amendments, an the bill was ordered to be cngrollcd for a third reading.
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