tXtenfioo, might snap, and be rendered more difficult to biin£
together than the rope of faud divided in a dozen places.
Let us look to the policy of the former Congress. Did they
ever entertain an idea of taking on themselves the State debts ?
Did they ever pledge the faith of the continent to aflame them ?
Nay—Did they, when they applied to the reipe£live States for
the power of preserving the Union, I mean the five per cent, ever
dream of dilcharging those debts, or did any of th£ States require
it ? The constitution did not contemplate it ; for that provides
for the debts of the Union only, and many of the State debts are
not of a continental nature, and ought not to be a continental
-charge ; of this kind, I hold the Penobfcot expedition trom Mas
sachusetts, and the fitting out the (hip South-Carolina by that State.
If States choole to run into those balloon exploits on their own ac
count, their neignbors ought not to pay tor it. The intention of
the present fyilero I imagine is to introduce all those charges.
Policy, he said, was against the atrumption. Many ot the
States have material objections, and will view the interterence
with a jaundiced eye ; and uotwithftauding what gentlemen so fre
quently ridicule ot monsters and hydras, jealoufits will arise, and
peihaps from the nature of republican governments it is necessary
they (hould. I think, at least, that there will be a just founda
tion for fhem in the present inftance —for, will the citizen who
has alread) paid his proportion of the debt to his State, content
edly fee a new burthen imposed on himfelf and his poftenty—a
burthen we know not when we shall be rid of—a burthen we
know not the weight or amount of.
Again §ir, is it policy on the fubjefl of public credit ; paper '
of whatever denomination, whether flock or not, will be atfe£led
by the quantity in circulation, and will be depreciated accord
ingly. Policy on every principle forbids it—policy forbids us, in
the vigor of youth, to cloath ourfelvcs with all the impotence, im
becility and infirmity of extreme old political age. Britain wai
seventeen hundred years politically ola, dating trom Julius Caesar's
invasion, before Ihe had a funded debt. The United States have
scarcely attained their fourteenth political year, when they are a
bout to mortgage themselves and posterity lor a funded debt ; the
•one third, or perhaps the one hall ot the amount of Britain's enor
mous debts at this day.
Mr. Jackson observed, that the justice of the measure had as
many oojetfions.
The greatest plea of justice was, that the debt was of the fame
nature, and contra&ed for the fame reasons and in the fainecaufe.
His arguments before, he said, had proved this not to be altoge
ther the cafe : butfuppofmg it was, he asked whether it was jus
tice to compel the citizen who had already contributed, to pay a
i'econd proportion. Gentlemen had talked much of the exertions
of their States—the hardlhips they had endured—and the ravages
they had sustained. He could advance, with equal confidence,
that he came from the State which had fuffered the mod of any
in the Union ; where there was noplace, no corner but where
the British arms had been carried ; where the families had been
totally driven off, and their properties had been totally destroyed ;
where the inhabitants had scorned the Britifti prote£hon, and left
their properties behind them ; where what the Britilh had left,
the American army had taken to subsist on, and not a certificate
had been given in numerous instances. Yet those citizens whose
property had been thus destroyed, had cheerfully submitted to
the payment of the State debt. But would it be justice, after all
those lodes, and after this already voluntary contribution, to put
our hands again in their pockets, and fay, you must pay the
debts of MalTachufetts and South-Carolina. If those States have
not done as they ought—if they have not extinguifhcd their debts,
they have themselves to blame for it.
Sir, in Georgia the audited debt has drawn no interest—inter
est has been allowed only on a small proportion of funded debt ;
for we also Mr. Chairman, must have our project of funding, un
til we were convinced by experience it would not answer, and
that we could not pay a regular specie interest. By this plan, fir,
all those audited certificates will draw interest from the time of
liquidation, which will greatly increase the debt of Georgia, and
not benefit her citizens : for the late speculations, no doubt have
changed the holders, and the very man who did the service or fur
niftied thefupply, contented with the principal sum, will now
have to contribute his pioportion towards payment of the interest
of his own certificate and which he himfelf was not entitled to.
By the system before us tht settlement with the States is post
poned to a distant day—a day which never may arrive, and not
withstanding the balance may be in favor of the State I repre.fent,
the citizen may be forever bound for the intercft of this enormous
debt—the debt of other States.
There is another part of the Secretary's report which will ma
terially injure Georgia. The proviso, that where a Hate shall have
rxchangcd the securities of the continent for those of her own, no
settlement shall be made until those exchanged certificates (hall be
brought in and surrendered. The State of Georgia little thinking
of such a day as this, altho very materially concerned, has, as it
-was usual with her, burnt her exchanged certificates as they have
returned to her trcafury. Is she, because those certificates have
been funk and fentto oblivion, and which I wish our whole debt
was, to fuffer for her honcfty, and that of her citizcns ?
Sir, I will not tax the Secretary ith thedefign ; 1 will not im
pute the intention to him ; but I trust that we (hall not run our
lcives enormously in debt and mortgage ourfelvesand our children,
to give ftope to the abilities of any minister on earth to give an
opening to (hew the talents he possesses of managing taxes and the
resources of the burthen he unpofes.
Mr. Jackson concluded, by faying, that tohis mind and agreeably
to the reasons he had given, he was convinced the aflumptionof
the State debts was inexpedient, impolitic, and unjust ; and he
trusted that it would not be adopted.
Mr. Smith (S. C.) replied to Mr. Jackson, that he rtiould be as
un billing as that gentleman to assume debts of any State incurred
for balloon schemes (as they had been termed) but he did not think
the Penobfcot expedition or the South-Carolina irigate came
within that defenption ; the members from MafTachuflfetts could
answer for the former, and a? to the latter, he could fafely fay that
the State of South-Carolina fuffcred such injury to her commerce
during the war, that a naval prote&ion was indifpenfibly neccffary
—that other States were prote&cd by vetfels of war on continen
tal establishments, while the State alluded to was unprote&ed, and
her trade crippled by the enemy—that the equipment ot that vef
iel had cost a much less sum than was generally believed, as but a
small part of the sum demanded had been allowed by the State.
He obierved, that as the union were under obligations to protefl
every part, so were they also bound to contribute their propor
tion of expence, incurred by any particular part tor its own de
fence—thar this was language which had been much repeated dur
ing the I ast, feflion, when the houfehad been called 011 to vote a
large sum of money for the protection oi Georgia from the Creeks,
and which under the influence of that principle, the house had
a&ually done. That State could have justly complained had she
been left to protest herfelf, and to incur io heavy a burden.—Mr.
Smith said the opposition of gentlemen to the measure seemed to
originate in an idea thatthefe weiethe private debts of the several
States incurred for their own particular purposes ; the fact was
just the reverse—they were as much the debts of the continent, as
those which were called the continental debts—they were as much
the price of independence—instead of their being State debts as
sumed by the continent, they were in truth continental debts
which the States had assumed when Congress were unable to pay
them ; but now Congress had in its exclusive poffeflion the bell
resources of the nation, and (hould all those resources be applied
so the payment of a few continental creditors (and they had been
frequently told that all the continental securities were in the hands
of a few speculators) to the total ruin of all the State creditors, it
was eafv to anticipate dangerous consequences ; indeed such would
be the diflatisfadion on the part of the State creditors, that it would
couiidei ably obftiuft the colli & ion oi" the national revenue. There
had been no reason afligned, and he believed it was impoflible to
aflign any, which could eftablffh a diflin£lion between the one
and the other class ot these creditors—their claims were precifcly
similar, and they ought to be provided tor on similar terms.
Gentlemen were miilaken, if they thought South-Carolina had
made no exertions to discharge her debt since the peace—that State
had levied on her citizens every year a tax, which cjnlidermg hei
losses by the war, and the devafUtions committed by the enemy,
was a very considerable one, amounting to upwards ot 300,000
dollars annually for the interefl, besides a million and an half oi
dollars principal paid off, making upwards of three millions ol
dollars.
It had been said that Great Britain was 1700 years old before
(he began a funding fyflem, while the United Mates were about to
adopt it at the age ot 14 ; to that he observed, that America was.
nearly, if not quite, as lar advanced in political sagacity in ftci
early youth as Great-Britain in her extreme old age, having the
experience of Great-Britain, and of other nations during a long
course of years as her guide ; and that he always thought the vigoi
of youth was more equal to the support of heavy burden? than in
firmity of age. He agraed with the geutleman that if the measure
was a wrong one, the sentiments of one or two States should not
influence their determination, but he was persuaded that on a diU
cuflion of its own merits, it would be found necessary tor the u
nion and tranquility of all the States.
To Mr. Smith's answer, that the State debts were all on a foot
ing with the debts of the Union, and that on this principle, Geor
gia had received protection laftyear, and might receive more this,
Mr. Jackson replied, that if Georgia had received pru:e£tion, it
had not been with the vote of some members from thatStace (S. C v
who supposing, as he would charitably allow, that ihe Georgians,
and not M'Gillivray, were in the wrong, had withheld then
voice ; that however in his opinion, the cases were not the fame :
but he denied that Georgia hitherto had received the least shadow
of protettion from the union, although the moll favorable report
was exifling of their condutt on the table.
That the cases were not similar, because in the cases of Georgia
there was an invasion of the union*: whilst in the cafe of the fhi
the South-Carolina which he had mentioned, thai State had don
what they were not warranted in by the laws of Congress or con
federation. The fitting out Ihips of war—that that State was no
contented to be 011 an equality with her fillers, but aimed at a
high founding fame, of poffefling vessels of wai in her own em
ploy. That her# he w->uld remark, that as well in this cafe as in
that of the State vessel of Massachusetts, it could not be expected
that the Union should defray their expence. He would aikif any
of the prize monies of those vessels had been lodged in the trea
sury of the continent. He believed it h d not been the cafe, and
if it had not, the States which had reaped the benefits ought to
pay the charges.
The gentleman had insinuated, that as Georgia had allowed no
interefl or could not pay the interefl of her fundi d debt, ihe cer
tainly could not have discharged much of her debt. He would
put that gentleman right on this head, by assuring him, thai altho*
Georgia had not specie fufficient to 6lfcharge the inteieft of her
funded debt regularly, yet fhc had funk some hundred thousand
dollars of her principal debt.
Mr. Sedgwick said that he had not the vanity to suppose an.
thing new which hecould fay would authorise him to expett the alrea
dy txhaufted patience of the committee, in an exteniivt disc uHion
of the vast fubjeft before them. He would however, call on the
candor of the gentlemen who so strenuously opposed the propofiti
ou under confederation, for, an attempt to answer some of the ar
guments which had been repeatedly advanced by himfelt and the
gentlemen with whom he had the honor to a£t and think on this
occasion.
He observed that the revolution was a common, a national cauf.,
lhat therefore the expeufe should be equally apportioned—thai
whatever had been advanced towards the attainment of the objetfc
should be fatisfied, if within the ability of the government. That
if the whole could not be paid the iofs mould be fuitained in equal
and just proportion : That these were the di&ates of common
justice and common honesty. and universally considered as con
clusively binding in the usual intercourse of men in civil society :
That thus confidcring the fubjeft, he thought the States now stag
gering under an unequal weight of burden, had a right to demand
of this government the adoption of the proposed measure. He fur
ther observed that this demand for justice would appear the more
reasonable, when it was considered that the government wduld not,
should the resolution be adopted, sustain any loss. For that it was
infaft true, as had been repeatedly stated, that lhould the debts
be aflumed, there wouid still remain, a baliance due, to every
State. Bccaufe there was no State, which since the commence
ment of the war had not done more than to support the expences
of its own government, and all its other incidental charges. That
this would be tvident, when it was remembered, that the whole
with which a State, in the event could be charged, would be, the
debt to be assumed, together with what had been heretofore ad
vanced to it ; and on the other hand it would be entitled to a cre
dit for all its advances and services in the war. In th s view of
the fubjeft, which was the just one, he wished gentlemen would
explain why the government should delay to put the citizens on a
footing of equality ?
He observed that the accounts of individual States with the Uni
ted States would ultimately be fettled, or they would not : If the
former, then justice would be done to all ; it the latter, the only
charitable and liberal supposition would be, that the States had
equally exerted themselves in their glorious struggle for freedom.
He further wished gentlemen would explain to the committee
and to the world, what were their intentions in regard to the State
cred itors, who it had been proved were equally entitled with others
to justice. He affirmed that as it refpetted some of the States, no
efficient mealures, of national finance, could be carried into execu
tion, and at the fame time leave the States an ability to fulfil their
engagements —engagements entered into at a time when they were
in poUeflion of funds which were fully adequate to the purpose,
and which funds were now surrendered to this government.
ERRATUM : In Mr. Ames's Jpecch, in our lajl, 5 paragraph 3 column,
for 41 130,000," read 1,300,000.
FRIDAY, MARCH 19.
Sketch of the debate on Mr. Sherman's motion for appointing
a committee to enquire into the receipts and expenditures of pub
lic money during the administration of the Hon. Robert Morris
late fuperintendant of Financc.
Mr Gerry observed that feme how or other the House is con
tinually recurring to the modes of procedure adopted by the latc
Congress, who were both a legislative and executive body ; the
present government is organized on quite different principles
The President of the United States is the only competent author
ity to take cognizance of the conduct of officers in the executive
department—if we pursue the proposed plan of appointing com
mittees we destroy the refponfibily of executive officers and d iveft
the House of a great and cflenti.l privilege, that of impeaching
our executive officers for mal-adminiflration. He concluded by
faying he was in favor of the report of the Senate for the appoint
ing commissioners—as placing the business in a more parliament
ary and conllitutional direction.
Mr. Gerry was replied to by Mr. Hartley and Mr. Fitzfimons
who contended that the motion was ftrittly parliamentary as n
was certainlyjult that an investigation on the part of the House of
the conduit of public officers ought to precede all crimination of
their conduit; this enquiry Mr. Morris has applied for and on
every principle of equity, he ought to have a fair and full hearing,
that if his conduit has been such as to merit approbation, he may
no longer lay under any disadvantageous or injurious imputation.
Mr. Jackson called tor a reading ott'ne memorial; which being
read—-He objected to the appointment of a committee, he thought
uunneccffary, it would cltablifh a precedent which would ?r,.
-394-
voJve a great variefy of difficulties ; he had no doubt of the honor
and rectitude of conduct 111 the memorialist, he was ready to ac
knowledge that he had rendered the country great and meruorious
services—and that this was the opinion of the people in general
through the United States—he was for accepting the report of the
committee and thus finifh the business.
Mr. Vining was in favor of the motion—and observed that the
report (itappears) does not come up to the ideas of the memorialiifc
—he wilhes to give particular fatisfd£tion to the members of this
noufe ; he wishes the. fan£l ion of this house to the merit of his ser
vices, should they on invefligation appear to deserve such a fanc
tion.julHce is all he asks for,and furtly gentlemen will not deny that.
Mr. Fitziimons followed Mr. Vining in a similar train of obfei
vations.
Mr. Bland was opposed to the motion : he thought the report
was a full juflification of the condu£l of Mr. Morris ; he was op
posed to appointing commiilioners, as creating an unnecessary ex
pence.
Mr. Madison was in favor of the motion, he offered a variety of
observations on the fubjeft, and in support of the idea, that the
House should possess itfelt of the fullefl information in order 10
doing juflice to the country and to public officers.
Mr. Gerry defended his firft opinion, that the several branches
of government should be kept separate—he was only solicitous he
said that the house should not eflabhfh a precedent which would
mix the several parts of the government. The memorialist re
qucfts the appointment of commiflioners—and what is the ob
j £tion : nothing more than the expence, which in a matter ofjul
ice, ought not to be considered.
Mr. Stone observed on the idea of expence, that if the business
is easy to be fettled, commiflioners will not be wanted for a long
lme ;if the business is intricate and difficult, a committee will be
very improper—he was therefore in favor of commiflioners.
Mr. Sherman said that for himfelf he was perfc£lly fatisfied ref
peding the accounts of Mr. Morris ; they are certified by as good
and honefl men as can poflibly be appointed—men entirely un
iifluenced and uncontrouled by any perf on whatever ; but flill he
thought to give full fatisfa&ion to the memorialist and to wipe off
any aspersions which may have been cast on him, he was in favor
of a committee.
MONDAY, MARCH 22.
The amendments proposed by the senate to the bill foreftabiifh
inj an uniform rule of naturalization, and to the bill to provide
for the mitigation or remifTion of fines, forfeitures and penalties
in certain cases, were taken into consideration. To the firftbill
one amendment only was proposed, which was agreed to by the
house. The amendment to the other, it was said, involved anal
t ration of the principle on which the bill was founded; other ob
le&ions were made, and on motion it was voted that the amend
ment should lie on the table.
In committee of the whole; the report of the fele£t committee
on the memorials on the slave trade under consideration. The
sixth article was further dikulTed.
Mr. Scott commenced the debate this day in advocating the
prayer of the memorialists, he was replied to by several ot the
Southern gentlemen. It was moved that the claufelhould be ftiuck
.out, this motion being put, it pafled in the negative.
The committee then agreed to the proportion.
The Seventh article was struck out of the report.
The committee then rose, and the report, as amended and agreed
to, was laid on the table.
A roeflage was received from the senate, with the bill making
appropriations for the fupp >rt of government for the year 1790,
concurrcd in with amendments. Adjourned.
TUESDAY, MARCH 23.
Sundry memorials and petitions were presented and read.—
The amendments of the Senate to the appropriation bill were taken
into confederation—the firft was agreed to.
The sum allowed by the house to Gifford Dally, Efq, for ser
vices performed during the rerefs, it was proposed by the Senate
(hould be divided between him and Mr. Mathers the door keep
er of the Senate, this amendment was obje&ed to ; after forae con
versation, the amendment was concurred in with an amendment.
The committee to whom was referred the petition of Rich
ard Wells and John Hart, brought in the following report.
Resolved, That the poflTcffors of the continental bills of credit,
emitted by the authority of Congress, before the ißtb day of March,
1780, on bringing the fame into the Treafuryof the United States,
(hall receive certificates for the fame, at the rate of one dollar spe
cie value for one hundred dollars of the said bills ; and the fame
shall be funded on interest in the fame manner as the other debts
of the United States. The interest to commence on the day the
said bills (hall be lodged in said treasury—and ail such bills in the
treafuryof any State exceeding its quota required by the atts of
Congress of the 7th day of O&ober, 1779; and the 18th day of
March,l7Bo,on being brought into the treafuryof the United States
(hall be credited to the account of such State at the rate aforefaid,
on interest of fix per cent, per annum—from the time it was re
ceived into the Treasury of the refpeftive States; laid on the table.
It was then moved that the house {hould take up the report of
the committee of the whole on the memorials of the people called
Quakers. —This motion was oppofedby Mr. Jackson, Mr. Smith,
Mr. Burke, and Mr. Bland—they severally observed that the dif
:uffion of the fubjeft has already excited a spirit of diffention a
mong the members of the house—and that every principle ot po
icy and concern for the dignity of the house, and the peace and
ranquility of the United States, concur to shew the propriety of
iropping the fubjeft, and letting it deep where it is.—On the o
her hand Mr. Vining, Mr. Hartley, and Mr. Page observed, thai
here was the fame propriety in taking up the fubjett at the pre
ent moment, and bringing it to a conclusion as there was for firfl
aking it up—that it has been so fully difcufled, that it cannot b*
uppofed gentlemen will go over the fame ground again ; it ma)
oon be determined, to pass it over will be unprecedented, ane
nil leave the public mind in the fame State of uncertainty fron
vhich so much danger is apprehended.
1 he motion for taking up the report was warmly contested, itx
i lengthy debate, and finally patted in the affirmative, by a ma
jority of one This was followed by a motion tor entering the re
port ot the feleft committee, and the report of the committee of
the whole on the journals of the houfs. This motion called up
the speakers from all fides of the house, and wasatlaft determin
ed by Ayes and Noes as follow.
AYES.
Hartley,
MeflYs Boudinot,
Brown,
Cadwallader,
Contee,
Floyd,
Foster,
Gerry,
Gillman,
Goodhue,
Griffin,
Hathorn,
Heifter,
Huntington,
Lawrance,
Lee,
Leonard,
Madison,
P. Muhlenburg,
Parker,
NAYS'
Jackson,
Livermore,
Matthews,
Moore,
Messrs Ames,
Baldwin,
Bcnfon,
Bland,
Burke,
Carroll,
Coles,
Gale,
Pa ge.
Van Ranfrllaer,
Smith, fM.)
Smith, (S. C.)
Grout, Stone,
For the report of the felecfc committee, fee No. 96, March 10.
I he fubftancc of the 1, 3, 5, and 6fti proportions of this report
were agreed to by the committee of the whole.
The amendment proposed by the House to the Appropriation
Bill, was non-concurrcd by the Senate. Adjourned.
Partridge,
Schureman,
Scot,
Sedgwick,
Sherman,
Sylvester,
Sinnickfon,
Vining,
Wynkoop. 29.
Sturges,
Su mpter,
Thacher,
Trumbull,
Tucker,
White,
Williamfon. 55.