breach ofpublic faith with thedoulefiic creditors of the United States, and violate thole l'olemn promises, so often repeated in appeals and pro clamations to the people by the late government, and a promise or engagement which has been rei terated by the new constitution ? In his opinion it required no profound skill, in politics or finance, to answer the question : it is only consulting the dictates of common faith and common honelty, which command nations as well as individuals to fulfil their engagements. The United States have repeatedly pledged themselves, in terms plain as language can ex press, to pay to the bearer a fpecific sum : and to commit a violation of this promise appeared to liim both unjufl and impolitic. If the United States are able to perforin it, they ought to do so. He believed and hoped that they had the ability ; and even in the cafe of inability, he was of opi nion, should bankrutptcyitfelfenfue from the ho uorable attempt to do juitice, this would be pre ferable to a stain cast upon these states, at the com mencement of their political career, by a cool and deliberate a<st of public injullice to their creditors. America has eltablifhed in the world a high mili tary character : let her but perform her engage ments, and she will also establish a national cha racter of honor and fair dealing. This will be to her as a real and fubltantial treasure, which she will be able to transmit, like a fair inheritance, to her children. Should we, on the other hand, pollute her, by fuffering her to commit a breach of honor, it will be such a public calamity as no money can compensate. Mr. Burke then offered a few observations, in anfwerto those gentlemen who were Co urgent in favor of the motion. They had advanced that the officers andjfoldiers have not been fully paid. The gentleman from Virginia [Mr. Madison] has said that, without the discrimination which he offers, we {hall be railing monuments of gratitude, not to our officers and I'oldiers who fought for us, but to those who speculated on their securities. On this, Mr. Burke remarked, that it is to be la mented, when our army was dilbanded, the de rangement of our affairs put it out of our pow er to pay them in specie. The states, however, did every thing in their power to provide for their soldiers. The state of S. Carolina gave them bounties in lands, and the warrants, and grants forthefe lands were pafledthrough differ ent offices without the usual fees. North-Caroli na, Virginia, and otherjftates, gave similar boun ties, he believed, without mentioning the lands appropriated for them by the United States. He would not fay that the foldierg have been reward ed, for what reward can be adequate [to their great services ? But he infilled that the people of America have not been unmindful of those servi ces. If we, for a moment, confiderthe conduit of the people towards one part of the army (the officers) we shall find that America has signally displayed her gratitude towards them, from the commander in chief down to the ensign. The il luilrous leader of her armies retiring from the field to private life, ihe again raifedto the eleva ted llation of a fovcriign prince ! Through what motives ? From gratitude for his splendid servi ces. View the high departments of the general government ; look into the several offices ; enter the several custom houses from the northern to the southern extremity of the continent : there we fliall find conspicuous inltances of gratitude. Let us now fee how the people regard the offi cers of the army in the different ltates. In S. Carolina, no other class of citizens Hand any chance in competition with officers ; they are promoted to thejflations of governor, lieutenant governor, privy counsellor? j they are to be found presiding in the tribunals of justice, in the legis latures, and on the floor of Congrels j and the gratitude of the people follows them in the pri vate walks and ordinary occupations of life. They arejuftly held in love and veneration ; and if the future historian of America records the truthand nothing but the truth,he must raise last ing monuments, both of the illustrious services of the officers of the army, and of the gratitude and love of the people for those services. This, Mr. Burke said, he mentioned in answer, or rather defence of the people, and to clear them from the charge of ingratitude. It is urged, in favor of discrimination, that a few (peculators will make princely fortunes. This, he said, was a circumstance which he sincerely regretted ; as he did likewise regret thefpecula tions now carrying on, from this city and other places, in the Hate of South-Carolina—the fend ing pilot-boats secretly from New York to Charles ton, while the people there were alleep, as it were, and totally unacquainted with the councils or ■views of aduiiniftration, with information on the one fide only : this he thought a hard cafe. But the speculators availing themselves of this and a variety of other advantages, could not, he laid, juftify him in his own mind, in giving a votethat would give a stab to the good faith and credit of a nation in whose councils he had the honor of a fuffvage. He forefaw, however, a still greater misfor tune, in this bufinefSj than that of a few specula tors aggrandizing them!elves by our funding sys tem : it is, th.it aur public securities mill go into the hands of foreigners. The present system, offered by the Secretary, is actually mortgaging these states to foreign speculators, for the amount of the debt : for the holders will fell, as they have al ready fold, iuunenfe funis to foreigners, to raise ready money. Few of our citizens poiieffing monied capitals, ready money will yieldVar ter emoluments, employed in commerce or agri culture, than when lodged in the funds. This is a calamity which he lamented from his foul : but, upon a most serious consideration upon the fhbjed:, he was not clear but a forfeiture of pub lic faith, a loss of public credit, would be for America a far greater calamity. He entertained strong apprehensions, that parting with the fair inheritance of public faith and public honor, under any pretext, would be acting the part of him who fold his inheritance for a mess of pot tage. Viewing the fubjedl in this light, he said he could not, he dared not vote in favor of the motion. He also mentioned another ground whereon he opposed it : the scheme of a discrimination ap peared totally impracticable. Coinmiffioners must be appointed, not only in different states, but in different places of the fame state. If coin miffioners are appointed, for instance, in Charles ton, the citizens must attend from the reinoteft part of the ltate, and be worried in travelling backwards and forwards to seek for witnefTes, many of whom may be dead or removed into other countries—not to mention the length of time and enormous expence which so complicat ed a business must occasion. Mr. Burke concluded by declaring it to be his opinion, that the proposition, if agreed to, would throw things into confufion and perplexity, which he could not fee the extent of : he fliould there fore oppose it. TUKSDA Y, FEB. 33. In committee of the whole on the report of the Secretary of the Treasury—the following resolu tion under debate, viz.—" Resolved that per manent funds ought to be appropriated for the payment of interell on, and the gradual discharge of the domestic debt of the United States." Mr. Livermore—This proportion is of A very extenlive nature—of which the committee have at present no adequate idea—l do not learn that the creditors have applied to Congress to pay them ; we do not know what the States are doing in the business ; we have an arduous task to pro vide for the debt of the union—The State debts are unascertained, we do not|know their merits or amount—there are commissioners appointed to fettle accounts between the United States and in dividual States ; we ought therefore to suspend all proceedings on the fubje<st, for the present —and if it cannot be palled over, I hope the re solution will be rejected. Mr. Lawrance in favor of the motion, observ ed that the ail'umption of the State debts, may be considered as a measure favorable to the States as the revenue collected through one medium will be more productive, and less liable to oppress the people than when collected through various and opposing channels—He adverted to the ne cefllty of a uniformity in the excise ; the States are repealing their excise laws—and the making provision for these debts must devolve upon the union ; he replied to Mr. Livermore's objection from the amounts not being known, by faying that the Secretary has ascertained this amount with such precision that there is 110 probability of its being more than 2 J millions dollars—it is likely to fall below that sum—the exact amount may be known in season—but from the returns actually received it is pretty evident that the el timate of those States not received, is rated full high—he entered into a consideration of the pre sent state of those debts, the merit of the credit ors, the necessity of a settlement of the debts of the refpetlive States—and the improbability of this being done while matters remain in their present situation. He advocated the measure from motives of policy and justice, and as hold ing out the only prospect left to the State credit ors ; their acquiescence in the measure is to be ex pected, and the plan is calculated upon that idea ; he hoped therefore that the committee would a dopt the resolution, as at present he saw no objec tion of any weight to taking it up at this time— he ihould however hear with pleasure the obfer ■vations of gentlemen upon the subject. Mr. Ames wished that the harmony which has prevailed, may be preserved—he prefuined for a variety of reasons that the consideration of the assumption of the State debts would not be poft poned—for if it should, it would alter the whole face of the subject before the committee, and the report of the Secretary would be no longer be fore us, but we fliould be wondering from idea to idea without having any definite objedl. Except the State debts Ihould be afl'umed, the revenue contemplated by the Secretary cannot be justly affunied, as it has special reference to this objetft. Mr. Sherman was in favor of the afliimption, after a proper difcriininatioti was made between debts incurred for the general defence, and those -379- which had refpscl to the particular interest bt particular States, and iu which the union was not interelted ; he thought the committee might now adopt the general reiolution, as provision, ac cording to the Secretary's plan, is to be a future business. Mr. Stone contended that the general govern ment would acquire an undue influence, and the State governments would be annihilated by the meal are—he objected to the mode of raising re venue by inipoit as operating very unjustly and unequally : lie then adverted particularly to the fubjedt of ailiinsption, and laid, that he very much doubted the right of the United States to adopt the debts of the individual States—he went on the fuppolition that these debts Were not in curred on the account of the United States ; and if the United States ihould proceed upon this principle there is no calculating the extent of tax ation.—The debts of the several States are ex ceedingly various as to their merits and relative value—the paper of the several States is very va riously and oppositely estimated.—He thenpoint ed out the difficulties which would rei'ult from the measure from the different plans of policy adopted by the States, and the creditors them* selves, by which the laws of Congress would not have a uniform operation—lt would produce this evil, the States would be taxed by their own le gislatures as high as they could go for the pur ses of internal legislation—and at the fame time, the general government wouldjbe extending taxa tion as far as they 'can carry it for the exigencies of the union. He observed the committee had gone on with a celerity of which he had not con ceived—the business he had supposed would have taken up a longer time for discussion—the dcci fions of the committee are of the highest impor tance ; I do not fee the necessity of precipitating the present queftion.—lf we move with caution in this great business we may give full fatisfac tion, and may receive the hearty concurrence of our conllituents—but if we haltily adopt mea sures, which may be contrary to their feelings, we lhall meet with opposition and difficulty in carrying our measures into effect, Mr. Sherman replied particularly to Mr. Stone. He said that both the general and slate govern ments were founded on the people—and there could be no danger in strengthening both govern ments, and veiling them with full powers to the limits of their Constitutions. The several States arc free, sovereign, and independent, as to all the purposes of their domestic regulation—and there can be no doubt that the people will be pleased with every measure adopted by Congress, agreea ble to the Conftitution,from which they derive ad vantages. If they exceed the line of the constitu tion, the people will chufe others which shall pro pose such alterations as may be found neceflarv. He could fee no difficulty from clashing juris dictions in the measure ; on the other hand, he conceived it the most effectual way to prevent it. He doubted not that the state creditors would fee their interest in acceding to the measure; he was opposed to a postponement; the plan is not to be immediately adopted, and as there will be fuffici ent time allowed for every arrangement, he hoped the committee would now decide the question. Mr. Burke entered into a consideration of the rife and progress of the debt of South-Carolina, and from a series of particulars endeavored to shew that their debt was incurred on account of* the general defence, and he thought it ought to be lo considered, but still he had his doubts ref pedting thepropriety of afluming those debts the present session—he thought it aljfurd to engage to pay debts when we do not know their amount, nor the abilities of the United States. Mr. Gerry adverted to the conflitution, to as certain whether the ail'umption was compatible therewith ; and found that it was perfectly con fident, as the debts were incurred for the general defence. The states were as agents on the part of the continent. The states and the general go vernment are as one great machine,inwhich small wheels are as neceflary as large, demolish one, and you destroy the whole. If the state debts ihould not be afl'umed, a clamor will be raised a gainst the state governments for not doing jus tice, and the people will consider them as op prelliire; they will diminifli in the estimation of the particular citizens. If the general go vernment ihould hereafter oppress the states, they will be in a better situation to defend themselves, being out of debt, than if in debt ; for out of debt, out of danger. He expati ated on the policy of the measure, and the fruitful source of disunion and discord, which would result from opposing and clashing systems of revenue and excise. He was in favor of a full compliance with the contract to the State creditor ; their claims are equally well founded with those of the creditors of the union—the object was the fame—the services the fame, and justice plead as urgently for them, as for the other. Mr. Goodhue, Mr. Fitzfimons, and Mr. Smith, spoke ill favor of the proposition. Mr. Lawrance, moved that the committee fliould rife and report progress. (To be continued,)t
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