jiiftice done their more diftrelled bretherli; those
who fold, did 2: in molt instances from neceflity,
thoi'e who hold at present are the more wealthy.
The fame gentleman has observed, that had
the market price risen to 20s. that this plan could
not Liave been' adopted. 1 allow the difficulty
.which would arii'o, but contend that in that cafe
the public faith would not have been discharged ;
but the cafe is the reverse, the hoafe knows the
the market price, and has it within their compass
todo jultice. But, fays the gentleman, tliefoldi
er might have kept it to the present moment, and
then it would have been worth the 20s. Unfortu
nate, foolifh soldier, indeed ! Why didlt thou not
lteel thy feelings against the wife of thy bofoin,
and behold thy beloved children without a mur
mur or an exertion, ftrayingon a dunghill ? then
thouinigheft have kept thy nominal 20s. until it
became a real one. But is this the language of
jnercy, or of justice ? what will a man not give in
exchange for his life? and, if he has feelings,
for that of .his wife and children i
But public opinion is vague, fay gentlemen ;
and the house has been cautioned againit pam
phlets and newspapers, as if the plan had been
composed from thence. The abilities of the ho
norable gentleman will give a ferions refutation
to this charge. For ftij parr, I have the candor
to afl'ure the gentleman that I have takes hints,
and that I always will take hints, whilst in public
life, from any valuable information given in ei
ther : like the berry on the brier, if I could pluck
it wirhfafety, I would ; and, if a valuable hint is
encircled with a torrent of abuse, I would accept
the hint whilst I would despise the remainder.
Sir, fuid he, public opinioh divided us from
Britain ; public opinion induced us to oppose her
arms; public opinion induced us to change the
formerfor the present conllitution ; publicopini
on brought nshere tolegiflate; and public opi
nion can replace usinour former lituations ; and
however public opinion may be censured bj
some gentlemen, 1 trust she never will need an
advocate on this floor.
This public opinion is in favor of the original
creditor ; it is impossible to be otherwise. The
people of America are a grateful people, and
they cannot, with indifference, view the earnings
of those who cftablifhed their independence con
verted to the coffers of the weal thy and ambitions.
The speculator is already more than fatisfied, if it
is only on the principle of interest which has ac
crued for 6, 7 and 8 years pail, and which they
have speculated on since.
Conceiving the objections raised by the oppo
iition refuted, the next confederation is the im
practicability.
The gentleman that brought the plan forward,
is more cJpable of answering the numerous obAi
cles thrown in by the phalnax of orators yester
day ; burl lhall undertake to anfvver a few of
them.
A gentleman (Mr. Boudinot) has declared it
impracticable, because thequarter inafters of the
late army, and the clerks of office, received the
certificates in their own names ; and, as an in
stance, quotes himftlf as having received large
funis in that manner. Bur, are not the books,
the documents remaining Is there not evidence
still existing ofihe original creditor ? That gen
tleman's own objection proves it. We will call
him as an evidence ; and there is 110 doubt but
mankind are not so debased, but that many o
rherfimilar confeffions will come forward. Be
iides, there can be a touchstone applied equal to
what the highest court of equity used, and there
is little fear but the truth would be found out,
and a detection of the fraudulent claim. The
impracticability, is out of the question, with re
fpe<ft to the speculator, who would receive the
highest market price.
But the public accounts are many of them loft.
Make it worth the time of the oiigiual creditor,
anil this would be 111 a great measure obviated.
Again, fays a gentleman (Mr. Sedgwick) the
certificates are in ficftitious names, and he
knows an instance in Bolton : then that gentle
man is likewise good evidence ; and the claim,
from his eftimony, would be invalidated ; but if
nor, the fame equitable proof would be required.
Mr. Jackson observed, that here, Proteus like,
rhe gentlemen changed their reafoiiing, and de
clined the public would be gainers by the mode.
He) however, aflertcd that it would not be the
cafe by their account. If rhe claimant did not
come forward, lie could not contend that the
public, not the (peculator, ought to be the gainer ;
that the public here, would pofl'efsthe fame right
as to an eitate left without an heir.
But it has been advanced, that th: money would
ba again genet ally dillributed among the poorer
clasS of people, and that speculators would be fly
ing to every part of the union to reap second
crops. Sucli a dHli'ibution would be a public
Welling, and by the lueafure, the tears of the af
fliifted would be dried up, and the widowed heart
be made to sing for joy. The leflbn I believe
lias been now taught, and will prevent the ex
tremes of speculation in future. The second crop
cannot be fu injuiions to the coinm unity, or prove
so plentiftiJ au liarveli to the fpectilator, as the
'jfifU.
It is neceiTary, it is laid, and we shall confe
quenrly have an host of officers. Mr. Jackson
deuiedthat neceflity : and there are numbers of
officers in the treasury department who might at
tend to the business; and a small fee, which -mould
be cheerfully paid, would find officers, if necrjjary, oj
rcfponjibility and char after in the different jlates
But it is an ex pofl falio law. This I deny to be
the cafe : no law has yet palled for funding the
debt ; we have a right to fund the debt as we
please. §ome gentlemen, oppofedto the present
principle,join the Secretary in opinion for lower
ing the iniereft; we have leen threats, under that
idea, not to fund at all ; and we cannot compel
subscriptions without the holders consent.
It is again laid, that if government do this
now, they may take tile fame ltep hereafter : this,
is reasoning on lunnife. It is not probable, if
witnin the sphere of pollibility, that America will
ever have a debt in the fame lituation. Loans, if
exigencies should arise, will be procured on ade
quate provisions ; and foreigners, from viewing
our justice and the unanimous resolve refpediing
them, will place a value and dependence onus.
If America is wife, said he, few wars will arise;
fituatedas we are, in a remote country from the
warlike nations of Europe, the wars we may ex
pert will be with a few tribes of Indians ; great
loans will therefore not be required. But, fup
polingall these poliible exigencies, thefoldier is as
neccflary a requisite as the fupp/y : will hetruft
again your broken faith?
The gentleman from Maflachufetts [Mr. Ames]
has charged the favourers of" the motion with
church-yard terrors ; with what propriety I can
hot judge, unless that gentleman, like a man pas
sing through a church yard saw an apparition, and
had the iinpreffion so strongly on his mind that
he infilted on it that all his neighbours saw it also.
The dangers that have been magnified are on
the other fide. We have been told of the ijs. in
the pound, paid by foreigners in Holland ; and
one gentleman (Mr. Gerry) has denounced a
gainit us the terrors of the ultima lex rcgnum.
Are we, laid he, independent or not ? If we are,
we have a right to modify our own debt. What
would Britain or Holland fay, ftiould we interfere
with their funds ? Would they not suppose us
deprived of reason, or laugh at our imbecility in
attempting it ? Thole who have purchased in
our domeitic funds are on the fame footing with
our own citizens. If wc art not independent it
is high time to make ourfelvesfo, whatever pow
er might oppofeus. The gentleman who brought
forward the motion, has been charged with ad
drefling the palfions : this might be retaliated ;
for declamation has been used for argument on
the other fide.
Equity, said lie, if the cause be equal, will fuf
fer, in. many instances, the heart to decide. The
gentleman from S. C. (Mr. Smith) has declared,
that what he has seen written on the fubjeift had
been as much on the one fide as 011 the other ; if
so, the heart, in this instance, ought to govern ;
and gratitude and humanity,its noblest principles,
are in favorof the driginal creditor. 1 havebeen
said he, against the funding principle at this
present moment ; byt as the house has determi
ned on it, it becomes my duty to acquiesce, but
011 principles of honor and justice, And it is to
be remembered, that the landholder of America
is the person ultimately to pay this debt, and his
property will be mortgaged for it ; for although
commerce may immediately supply the revenue
the landholder' is the consumer : 1 therefore
hope the debt will be funded 011 principles coil
genial with their wilhes. That class of people,
when they contemplate their independent situa
tion and their domestic happiness, although they
would revolt at the idea of filling the pockets of
the speculator, will cheerfully advance their pro
portion for the payment of the soldier and the
citizen, whose exertions have procured them the
bleilings they enjoy.
Mi. White fail] he agreed with '.he gentleman from Massachu
setts (Mr. Sedgwick) in the principle, that if a contrast is made for
a valuable confederation, and with the understanding of both par
ties, the legiflaiute ought not to interfere in it; an<fihould it ap
pear that the tranfa&ion, between the original holders of certifi
cates and the purchaftrs, was a fair one, the dispute in his mind
was at an end ; but 110 gentleman had attempted to (hew that this
was che cafe, though all the arguments against a difcriminatiou
were founded on that supposition. Perhaps it might be said, that
every argument ought to be coufidered as fair, uniefs the contrary
be proved ; but wheie one man has obtained the property of ano
ther, to the amount of iool. for iol. orial. 10. the tranfa&ion, he
said, mult be explained to him, before he wou d belie- e it to' be
honcft. What was the prcrent cafe? The ; original holder.', who
have parted with the evidences of their debts, were principally
common soldiers, militia-men and farmers, in indigent circum
ftancts. Who were the puichafers ? , The Secretary°of the Treal
fury tills us, that the molt enlightened among our citizens are the
crcditois ot the Unittd States ; common soldiers cannot be com
prehended in this description. What mult have parted, he allied"
between the soldier, the militia-manor farmer, and the purchaser?
Whatrealon could the purchaser assign for offering iol. for a pa
per which lpecified an obligatisnto pay iool. ? I; mult be fomel
tl.ing like this : The dates will nrver pay you ; if they do, it will
be at a very remote period, so long as to be useless to vou • but to
relieve your present neceflities, I will take the rifle, on myfelf and
give you id. Now, could any enlightened man, he asked in
1783, or atanj lubfequcnt peiwd, in which time the transfers
took place, believe that the inuefjtudence of America was in dan
ger ? or that the debis wimid not be provided for ?
He laid he knew so many mfbncts of tranfaflions like that
which he had stated, that lie doubted not the greater part of cc
tificatsi had been obtained by limilar means. Indeed he could
:iut coucuVc any other by which they could be obtained
562-
Kc fa id we were perhaps without a prcccdcnt in any other n
tion that would be applicable ; but he dehred gentlemen to <l~
termine for them selves, whether, under such circumstances th"
man who had rendered fcrvict;, to his country should be deprived
of his reward, or whether the purchaser ought to receiver M
fa;d it was viry different In the common tranfa&ions of life If
a man purchaled a tra£bofland for toool. paid the money, and took,
a boud for the conveyance, a third peifou, by informing tnc uui
chalcr that the feller could «ot make a title, or by other taJi'c Jai
gcltions, should obtain a transfer of the bond iu consideration or
tool, and get a conveyance and polfcflion of the land ; yet, on re
paying the 1001. the conveyance would be fct aside, and he would
be rdlortd to his land.
Mr. While gave f ime other instances of a iimilar nature j'
said he believed, if a. bond, whether du;, or to becomc due '
aHigncd under such circumstances, that the obligee would b '' 'ft"
fiable 111 coiittftmg it in a lourtof law, and that the injured oaf ~
would, on application, obtain redrcfs. He laid, that m cases °f
extreme hardlhip, courts ol equity would give relief without
preli proof of fraud. That this was the law of the kincd"'
of Great Britain, and was agreeable to the principles Q f t |, e J??
law. That the Roman jurills, he believed, had fixed the pointof
extreme hardship to one half of the value of the property uansfc
ed ; in England the court was to judge.
He said he did not thinkthe present holders were (triply CWi _
tied to any thing more than the original purchafcrs: That her
the maxim quoted on the other fide of the question, that the it
fignce Hands in the fhocsof theafligner, properly applied : You
cannot place auother on more advantageous ground than that on
which you fknd yourfclf: That the plea of an innocent pufcha
fer could Hot take place; the nature of the transition must in
pear evident to every man concerned ill a transfer.
He said the reverse of this did not hold : That an affiance w *
not always in as advantageous a situation is the affigner -"and i''
ltanced the cafeof his testator's bond at an under value; and wt."'
he said, could not retain in his hands the amount of the sum fj'
cifiedtn the bond, which the creditor might have recovered hnr
only the sum which he actually paid for the bond.
Mr. White said, that though in his opinion the present holder,
of certificates were ftriftly entitled to no more than what had
been paid to the original holders, yet—as an invefti* ati on of th«
circumftanee would be involved 111 inextricable difficulties and
finee we were (as had been verv properly observed and we'll «
prefledbv a gentleman from S. C. Mr. Burke! fettling the bufinefc
ol a family—he was willing to acqutefce in the motion of his col
league. He said x that arbitrators often gave the injured pmv lels
than his due, for peace fake ; and he was willing t® afi oi» the
fame principle. He doubted not but courts ofjulhce would »ive
relief in particular cases; but, in a matter of that magnitude" he
thought the interference of the legislature very proper. The S
Sea business he thought, in that j-efpefl, a good precedent. Two
gentlemen had mentioned the bufin-fs: he would notlaythevhad
miftated the traufaaion, but he thought their accounts imnerfefl
They said they had the documents under their hands; he wished
they had been read ; he had t hem not, but would state from me
mory what he thought applicable to the cafe in question. The
directors of the S. S. Company, by variout arts, induce the peo
pie to give as high as toool. for 1001. (lock; in many ii.stances
the money was paid, in others it was contrasted to be paid. A
gentleman has said, that Parliament interfered not to violate but
to perfe&the contract: But whit did parliament do ? They' con
fifcatcd the eftatcs of the directors, and applied the amount to the
relief ol those who had aflually paid their money, and fufnendci
suits agamft those who had not paid ; and authorised the debtors
to discharge their debts by the payment of 10 per cent, er the
real value of the (lock fubferibed for. But if he was wrongin
fuppoluig the present holders ought toftand in che place of the firft
purchasers, they could be considered 'only as having purchased in
market, a paper of indefinite vjlue : if then tbey get the hieheft
market price, they arc not injured.
(To be continuedj
MONDAY, FEBRUARY 22.
Mr. Schureman prefen'ted a petition of James M'Corab, rcta
twr to certain inventions, which was read.
The amendments of the Senate to the bill for enumerating the
inhaoitants of the United States, were read.
The enumeration is to commence on the firft of August next,
and to be com pleated withinnine months. Returns to be made
on or before the firft of September, tjgr. The second schedule
was ftruek out by the Senate; these amendments were agreed to
excepting those which reduced the compensations
The oiderof the day being called for, the House went into a
committee of the whole on the report of the Secretary of the
Trrafury. *
The que ft ion being put upon Mr. Madison's amendment to the
second resolution, brought in by Mr. Fitzfimons, it was negatived
by a large majority.
Ihe question on the second resolution was then put; several
amendments were proposed, which were negatived,and the refo
uuon carried in the affirmative without amendment, viz,
Ke'.olved, That permanent funds ought to be appropriated
tor the payment of the interest on, and the gradual difchar-e ok*
the domestic debt of the United States."
The third resolution was then read, viz.
Resolved, rhatthe arrears of intereil, including indents.issu
ed in payment thereof, ought to be provided for on the fame
terms with the principal of the said debt."
Mr. Lee proposed an amendment, " (hat appropriations of the
lands in the Western Teritory be alfigned for the purpose of dif
chargmg the interest due on the debt of the United States."
This amendment was not seconded.
Mr. Gerry faid,that it appeared to him that the indents, in the
evera tate ireafuries, and which thro negligence have not been
paid into the Public Tieafury agreeable to the requifnions of the
ate Congress, ought not to be included in the provision. He mo
ved an amendment to the resolution to that purport ; Thisocca
10,"eu con siderable debate ; but the motion was finally negatived.
I he queltion on the third resolution was then put,' and carried
without amendment by a large majority.
Ihe fourth resolution was then read, viz.
" Resolved, That the debts of the fefpeftive States oaght.
With the con lent of the creditors, to be alTumcd and provided for
bjr the United States."
It was then moved that the committee rife, &c. which motion
was adopted.
A melfage from the Senate, informing the House that they recede
Iron, their amendments to the enumeration bill, which had been
dilagreed to by the House. Also, that the Senate have accepted of
the ceflton of territory made by the State of North-Carolina; in
which acceptance thev request the concurrence of the House.
memorial of the commissioners for fettling accounts be
ween the United States and the individual States refpefting the
a ariesof the Clerks in their office, was read the second time,
and referred to a committee of three, viz. Mr. Gerry, Mr. Trum,
bull, and Mr. Goodhue.
The House then adjourued.
TUESDAY, FEB. 23.
A report from the Secretary of the Treasury on the petition of
rancis Bailey was read—this report dates that the invention of
LP""' 0 "" 111 typographical printing may in their application,
e oer the pernicious practice of counterfeiting much more dil
icult than It has heretofore been—that the request of the peti
loner, to be employed in using his invention in the public fer
t"bl' " to 'he discretion of the Legislature—laid on the
In committee of the whole House on the report of the Secrs«
tarv of th- Treasury. r
Mr. 3cnfon in the Chair.