X|)£ Casctte* PHILADELPHIA, SATURDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 2. CONGR E S S. ||[ M| \ HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. ' Debate on the Memorial of the Quakers. THURSDAY NOVEMBER 30. The memprial having been read by the clerki Mr. Gallatin moved that it be read a second time. Mr. Harper hoped not. This was not ithe fird, second or third time that-the house 'had been troubled with fmiiiar applications, which had a tendency to stir up a class of persons to inflict calamities which would bf of greater confequepc'c than any evils which were at present fuffered ; and this, and every other legislature ought to set their fa,cm . .rertio;vfl,w.nces. cp,i»plciii\- ' ing of what it was utterly impossible to alter. Mr. Thatcher hoped thepetition would have a second reading, and be committed. It appeared to him that this would be a re gular way of getting rid of the difficulty which was apprehended. The gentleman just set down said, that this was not the fird, second or third time that the house had been troubled with similar petitions. This he fr.id, was natuaal. If any number of persons considered themselves aggrieved, it was not likely they (hould leave off petition ing, until the house (hould aft upon their petition. He thought this was the way that they ought to do. If the Quakers thought themselves aggrieved, it was their duty to present their petition, not only three five or seven times, but fev?rity times, until it wa3 attended to. Gentlemen, therefore, who wished not to be troubled again, ought to be in favour of a second reading and re ference. At present they did not know what the particular grievance complained of was, nor whether it could or could not be remedied. He believed that one of the fub jefts of complaint had a reference to a mat complained of in a memorial presented at the tail feffioti, rfcfpefting some dark com plex ioned citizens of North-Carolina, who ■were* injured by the operation of an aft of the United States, called the Fugitive Aft; but as it was the wish of the house not to enter upon any business of a private nature at that time, the petition was ordered to lie on the table. It appeared, therefore, highly proper that this petition be referred, as was cuitomary, to a committee, that this grievance might be rclnedied. Mr. Lyon said, it appeared to him that the gentleman from S. Carolina (Mr. Har per) had not attended to the fubjeft matter of the petition, or he would not have ob jefted to it 3 being read a second timc.There was a grievance complained of, which cer tainly ought to be remedied, viz. that a certain number of black persons who h*d been ,set at liberty by their matters, were now held in (lavery contrary to their right. He thought this ought to be enquired into. Mr. RuTLEDGE'ihould not be opposed to the second teading and reference of this memorial, if he thought the drong censure they deserved, would be the report of a com mittee. The censure, he thought this bo dy of men ought to have; a set of men who attempt to fedgCe the servants of gentlemen, travelling to the feat of government, who were incefTantly importuning Congress to in-' terfere in a business with which the consti tution had fafd they had\nb concern. If he was furc tips conduft would be reprobated, he would chearfully vote for a reference of the present petition ; but not believing this would be the cafe, he fliould be for its lying on the table-, or under the table, that they might not only have done with the business for tp-aay, but fuiallr. At a time when some nations were witnesses of the mod bar barous and horrid scenes, these petitioners were endeavouring to incite a class of per sons to the commifiion of similar enormities. He thought the matter of the greatefl im portance, and that the reference ought by 110 means to be made. A grntleraan before him (Mr. Lyon) had said, that they had certainly something to do with the detenti on of free men in slavery. If the faft were as dated (which he doubted) redress ought to be fought by means of a court of judice, and not by petitioning that house. Mr. Svvanwick was sorry to feefo muck heat produced by the introduftion of this petition." He himfelf could fee no reason why the petition (hould not be dealt with in the ordinary way. If the petitioners asked for any thing which it was not in the pow er of the house to grant, it would be of course refund ; but this was no reason why their petition fliould not be treated with or dinary refpeft. In this memorial, he said sundry things were complained of; not only ilavery, but several other grievances. • For indance, play-houses were complained of, whether justly or not, he was not about to decide. With refpeft to the grievance mentioned in N. Carolina, something, per haps might be done to remedy it, without affefting the property which the gentlemen seemed so much alarmed about. He could not suppose there was a disposition in tbe house to violate the property of any man ; there was certainly as strong a disposition in ' the middle Hates as in the foutherri, to hold inviolable ( the right of property; nor could be fee any leafonable ground for throwing this petition under the table. If these peo ple wcrt wrong in their underftariding of this fubjeft, it would be best to appoint a committee to set them right. He was for ■ry to hear gentlemen charge so refpeftable a body of men in that house <*f attempting lA seduce and debauch their servants, frtr if this were the cafe, redress could doubtless be had in a court of juflice. The uncommon warmth which was (hewn 011 the occasion would lead .persons to suppose that gentle men were afraid of having the matter locked into, as this was generally the temper re sorted to when argument w-;s wi.sting. He lioped the memorial witul.l be dialt with in the usual way. Mr. Gallatin said, it was the praftice of the House, whenever a memorial was pre sented, to havs it read a fir It and second time, and than to commit it, unless it were exprelTed in filch indecent terms as to induce the house to rejeft it, or upon a fubjeft u pon which petitions had been lately rejefted by a large majority of the house. In'no other cafe were petitions rejefted without examination and without discussion. He said without examination and without dis cussion, because it* was impossible, upon a single reading of a petition, to be able to form a found judgment upon it. Indeed, feeing the way in which the S. Carolina (Mr. Rut-ledge) had treated the futjjeft, no cool examination could be expefted at present ; in the moment of pas sion it would be best not to decide, but to feßd the petition to a committee. What were the objections to this mode of proceed ing ? It was that the fubjeft would (hake a certain kind of property. How so J A pe tition that reminds us of the fate of certain Jilacks in this country ; which did not refer to (laves, but to free men. This petition was to (hake property ! In the fame manner it might be said, that the law of Pennsylva nia for the gradual abolition of Ilavery, had also a tendency to destroy that property ; or that the legislative decision of the state of Massachusetts that there shall be no (lave un der their government, wouldhave that effeft. But it wqs fa:d, 'the eharaftersiof the peti tioners was such as they ought to brand with the mark of disapprobation. In support of this charge, it was alledged that they were not fatisfied with petitioning, but that they attempted to <febauch and seduce ser vants to rt,b gentlemen of tlneir property. — He did not know to what the gentleman who made this assertion alluded ; but he believed, if the matter were fairly dated, whatever may have been done in the.date of Pennsylvania, has been no more than an en deavour to carry into full effeft the laws of the state, which fay, " that all men are free when they set their foot within the state," excepting only the servants of members of Congress. As to the moral charafter of this body of people, though a number of their principles were different from those which j he profefTed, he believed it could not be said ; with truth, that they were friends to any kind of disorder, and he was surprized to 1 hear gentleijien suppose they could or would do any thing which would throw into dis order any'part of the union. On the con trary, he believed them to be good friends of order. Mr. G. r ai<3, he wilhed to have avoided a discussion of, the merits of the memorial ; but when they were told it was improper to do any thing on the fubjeft, it became neceflary. He knew it was in their power to do something. They might lay a duty of ten dollars a head on the importation of >flaves ; he knew a me morial had been presented at a former session refpefting the kidnapping of negroes, which had been favorably reported upon.— Final ly, tbe present memorial did not apply only to the blacks, but to other objefts. With refpeft to plays, they had a motion lad sessi on before them for laying a tax upon ihem, which had a reference to the 'fubjeft. By committing this memorial, they (hould give no dectfion. If the committee reported they Could do nothing in the business, and the house agreed to the report, the matter would be closed in a much more refpeftful way than by throwing the petition under the table. , Mr. Sf.wali> said, the gentleman lad up had dated two cases in which petitions had been rejefted, without a commitment. He might have added a third more applicable to the present memorial. This was, when a petition was upon matter over which this house had no cognizance, especially if it were of such a nature as to excite disagree able sensations in one part of the house, who were concerned in property which was al ready held under circumstances fufficiently disagreeable. In such cases, they ought at once to rejeft tbe memorial, as it would be mifpending time to commit it. If, for indance, a petition should be presented com plaining that a person had refufed to dis charge an obligation to another. It would be at once acknowledged that the house could not enforce the obligation appli cation must te made to a eourt of judice. So in this cafe, th? petitioners complain of a law of North Carolina. This house, he said, could not ehange that law. If any thing was done there contrary to right, the oourt of that state, as well as those of the United States, were open to afford redress. It was their business, and not the business of that house. They did come there to aft upon fubjefts agreeable to their feelings, but upon such as the constitution had placed in their hands. The gentleman from Pennsyl vania had said they might impose a tax of tfn dollars upon the importation of evety (lave. Would this, he asked, relieve the petitioners? No. If they could prevent the kidnapping of aegroes. it was well ; but nothing was aimed .a tof this fort in the petition. He reeollefted a former instance of this kind, but the iffiie of the business (hevved that no thing could be done without injuring the public more than individuals would be be nefitted. The petition alluded to Stage Plays. With what view ?To raise reve nue ? No ; but to a correftion of them with refpeft to morals. It was not within their province to do this, but under the power of the state governments. If they were taken up for the state of revenue, they did npt come within the purview of this petition, but of the committee of ways and means. Upon the whole, as he considered this a dan gerous business, and that they could do nothing to gratify the feelings of the peti tioners, he would not wish to treat the ap plication with contempt, but let it lie on the tahle. Mr. Macon said, there was not a gen tleman in North-Carolina who did not wifli then? were no blacks iu the country. It was a misfortune ; he cotifidtred it a curse ; but there was no way of getting rid of them. Instead of peace.makers, he looked upon the Quakers as auar-tnnhrs, as they vvert continually endeavouring in the south ern Rates to stir up irffurreftions aKiongft tflc negroes. It was unconllitutional, he said, in these men to desire the house to do what they had no, poiVer to do ; as well might theyafk the President of the Uilited States to come and take the There was a la'w in which forbade any perfqil fi:omj;]jflidiu£- ei-s ther a black or white period as a,flaw after he had been set at liberty. The 134 ne groes alluded to in tht petition, he knew nothing of. In the war, (aid, the Quak ers in their state wets tories ; thty began to set free their negroes, when the state pafled a law that they (liould not set them free. If these people were difatisfied with the law, they had nothing to do, but traiifport then negroes into Pennsylvania, where thegentleman from that state had told them, they would be immediately free.— This fubjeft had been already before the house, but they declined doing any thing in it. It was extraordinary that these people (hould come, session after fefTion, with their petitions on this fubjeft. They had put playhouses into their memorial ; but they had nothing to do with them. In this state, he believed, the legiflaturc had palled a law authorizing them. It was altogeth er a matter of state policy. The whole pe tition wass indeed, unneceflarv. The only objeft seemed to be to sow difTetition. A petition could not come there touching any fubjeft on whiph they had power to aft, which he (hould not be in favour of com mitting ; but this thing being wroDg in it ffrlf it was needless to commit it, as no (In gle purpose could be anfweredby it. Mr. Al len was in favour of a second reading and committal. He did not know that no good could arise from such a pro ceeding. He wished tlhJe to confidcr the matter. He had ariotfier rdifort against get ting rid of this business. When the debate upon this question came to be faithfully re ported, it might Be said that the Society of Quakers had been found guilty of such foul conduft, that thtir petition to the house had been throwu under the table. Another reason. Last summer, along with other ■ft rangers, he went to fee the new gaol of this where he was (hewn a man who had been a manumitted (lave ; but after be ing free twenty years, he was apprehended under the fugitive law, and was there impri soned. If this were so, it was n#Ceffary that this law (hould be revised. He hoped, therefore, the petition might be committed, and that this evil might be remedied. At all events, he truftcd the petition would not be-rejected, as it would be highly difrepeft ful to a society of men reveted by every man, who set value upon virtue and ''integ rity. Mr. Livingston said, if he could be lieve that the petfons who presented this pe tition were of the defcrfption which they had been reprffertted ; thai they endeavour ed to raise infurre&ions in pne part of the country, and pntftifed • robbery in another, he (hould not b# inclined : to pay much ref peft to them. Bat he dM Hot believe these charges; he believed them lndiferiminately made and unfounded. It was pollible that a member of this community, as well as of any other, tnight b« of this description ; but as against the body, he knew the Charg es were unworthily made. He was ac quainted with many of these persons in those dates where they were mart numerous, and he was certain they did not deftrve the cha rafter given them. Therefore, as the mat ter refpefted the petitioners, the petition ought not to be thrown under tie table. Let us now, said he, examine the reqUest, and fee whether it be so improper and impraftica ble, as to make us fay, on its filft reading, we have heard enough. Why do (hey a(k ? They fay a certain number ef citizens are deprived of what belongs to them ; and can we fay we will not grant relief ? No, said he, we cannot, before the business is enquir ed into, as it would be aftisg unlike the le giflaturc of a great nation. If they said this application was so improper as not to be committed, what did they fay to their pre deceflors -who fat in thatltoufe a few months ago, who not only received an application of a similar kind, but a committee reported in its favour. They said, universal emanci pation is not in oirr ]so\ver ; but the evil is one for which a partial remedy may be pro vided. The want of time only prevented its being afted tipon. This was an objeft upon which they 1 might at lead debate ; he could not fay whether they could afford a re ,medy, or not. His owr. impreflions were they cou Id not ; but he yould not fay they never could. He did not think he (hould do the duty which he was sent there to do, by faying so ; which was to follow the diftates of a sober judgment, after fafts were fairly and fully stated. He thought it best to follow the usual course, by appointing a committee, who would examine the mat ter, and report what was best to be done, which the house could agree to, or not, as they thought proper. Hethoughtit would be for the advantage of those state« most in<- terefted in the question, that it (hould be fully difenfted and difpafllonately decided upon ; for so J»i}g as the petitions of these persons were neglefted,<ir : treated with con tempt, so long wovrld they conceive tficy were unjuitly treated, <iod n fcoiatiriue their applicatiohs for redress. Mr 1 . L. said there were a number of general refleftions con tained in the memorial upon the grbwth <sf vice and immorality, to th 6 fu]6priffion of which he did not fee that the power of Con gress extended. They pattituEMyJMJfttkd' at the eftablilhmert of play-houses ; but it might be remarked, that these gentlemen, so averse to the eftablifhmerit of play-houses, have not written their memorial without borrowing language • from them, as they term the evils tvhicw they (peak of a terrible ■trsgedj. . ' Mr. Isaac Parker was of opinion with thegentleman from Peftitfylyani.a (Mr. Galla tin) with refpeft to the disposal of peti tions ; but it appeared to him that the fub jeft matter of all petitions (hould be within the view and authority of the house ; if not, to refer them, would certainly be a waste of time. He had attended to the petition, and he did not tliifik there was a single ob ject upon which it was in their powerto act. Nothing was praved for. The petitioners speak 6? the slave trade and in general terms On the immorality of the times as injurious to the state ps society, and wiili some means (nay be taken c,o present the growth of them. To refer a petition of this fort", there fore, to a committee, could anfvver no pur pose. He did not think they were more obliged to take tip the business, than if thty had read the address in a news-paper. Mr. Bayard said, it might be imagined, from the anxiety and warmth of gentlemen, I that the question before them was, wheth- I er slavery (hould or (liould not be aboliihed. The present was however very remote from such a queftioß, as it was merely whether a memorial (hould be read a feiond titne.— The contents of this memorial, he said, were right or wrong, reasonable or ttnrea fonable ; if right, it was proper it (hould go to a committee ; andif wrong, if so clear ly absurd as it had been represented, where would be the evil of a reference for a report thereon. He did not like things to be de cided in the moment of paflion, but from the fulleft consideration. In some coun tries, they knew persons accused of crimes were condemned without a hearing : but there could be but one sentiment as to the injustice of such a proceeding. There could i be 110 objeftion, therefore, upon general ' principles, to the reference of this petition. But it was said, it was not to be sent, be cause of the general habits of this society. , He there was nobody of men more rcfpeftable ; they were obedient, and con tributed chearfully \ to the fupporc of go vernment ; and either politically, or civilly speaking, as few crimes could be imputed to that body as to any other.—This memorial, he said, had been treated as coming from an abolition society ; it was a memorial of the general fnrttihg of the people called Qua kers ; andifonly out of refpeftto that body, it ought tobe referred. But it wasfaid, it did not contain matter upon which the house could aft. Gentlemen feemtdnot tohave at tended to the fubjeft matter of the petition. He did not believe that the house had the power to manumit (laves ; but he believed there was not a word in the petition which had a reference to slavery. The petitioners state, indeed, that a number of negroes, not Haves (for negroes may be free) as having been taken again into slavery, after they had been freed by their matters. He wished td know whether the house had not jurisdic tion over this matter ? He was warranted by the eonftitution in faying they had ) because that instrument fays, that no state (hall make ex post fafto4a*vs. It belonged to that house therefore, to fee that the coufti tution was refpefted, as it could not be ex pefted from the justice of the individual tlates, that they would repeal such lawc. It rested, therefore, with the government of the United States to do it. Mr. B- read the clause of the eonftitution touching this mat ter, and concluded by reminding the house, that this was not an ultimate decision, but merely a reference. Mr. Jos I a h Parker said, he wa-salways inclined to lend a favorable ear to petition ers of every kind ; but when any memorial was prefcnted to the -house contrary to the uature of the government, he (hould consent •to its lying en the table, or under it -No one, he said, could fay they had a right to legislate refpefting the proceedings of any individual state; they, therefore, had uo power to decide on the conduft of the citi zens of N. Carolina in the matter complain ed of.—Petitions h'.d frequently come from Quakers, and others, on this fubjeft, where as this government had nothing to do with negro slavery, except that they might lay a tax upon the importation of flave6. He recollefted, when the fubjeft was brought before the house in the firft congress held, at New-Yoik, wishing to put a stop to the flavt trade, as niiich as possible, being a friend to liberty, he took every step in his power, and brought for ward-a proposition for laying a tax of ten dollars upon every slave imported. It was not agreed to ; but there was only one state (Georgia) in which the importa tion of (laves was admitted. Since theeftab lilhment of this government, Mr. P. said, the situation of (laves was much ameliorated, and any interference now njight have the effeft to make their mailers more severe. He knew of no part of the eonftitution which gave them power over horse racing and cock fighting ; nor could they inter fere with rtfpeft to play houses ; and where they scad no right to legislate, they had no right to speak at all. As the feflion had begun harmoniously, he hoped that harmo ny would not l?e broken in upon by such ap plications as the present. Mr. P. produc ed a precedent from the journals of. 17.92, where a memorial of Warner Mifflin, a Quaker, after being read, was ordered to.lie on the table, and two days afterwards re turned to the memorialist. Mr. Nicholas felt as much as other gen tlemerf from the Southern States on the fuhj jeftof-the present petition, but his feelings did not produce the fame tffefts. fie was not afraid of an interference from the United Stater, with their pfMncrly, nor of any in vestigations or difcuflions refpefting it. He, believed it would .be to the honor of the peo ! pie holding property in Slaves, that the ! 'bufi'nefs (honld be look *d into. He thought ; inch an enquiry, would rather ft cure than iiijure their property. He did not think, it was the incereil of Slave-holders to cover improper practices.' He waa fatisfied, that in tilt part, of tlx; country wheie he lived, there was no disposition to protest injuries —no disposition to rejeft an enquiry, pr to refufe to underftaud a complaint. They had been told that the state of Negroes, wKcft cases were mentioned is the Metnor ial, might have been produced hy, Fugi tive Law ; they had before heard thut this law had operated mifchievioufly. ,< It ought therefore to be enquired into. On enquiry Mr. N. said, it would not be found the fault of the Southern States, that Slavery was tolerated, but their misfortune ; but to liberate their Slaves at once, would be to a£l like Madmen ; it would be to injure all parts of the United States as well as those who possess Slaves. It was their duty, how ever to remedy evils; they were unfortun ately placed in a situation which obliged them to hold Slavr3, but they did not wish to extend the mifchief. He (hould, indeed, be lorry, if his possessing property of this kind, obliged him to cover the violation of another man's right; if this werfc the cafe, he should think /t necefTary that his proper ty should be taken from him. He did not think it neceflary, and he doubted not, if a fair investigation took place, that this kind of property would be brought into the fito "atioo in which every man of sense would place it. He was firmly of an opinio®, that to appear to be afraid of an enquiry would do more harm to his property, than a fair investigation. He trusted, therefore the Petition would be committed. Mr. Blount hoped this memorial would not be committed. As this was not the firft time the Society of Qiiakers had com ■ for ward with Petitions to the House, seeming ly with no other view than to fix an odi-um on the State of N. Carolina, he thought it his duty positively to contradift a faft ftatcd in this memorial. It was Hated that 134 persons set free from slavery in N. Carolina', had been fines enflavedby cruel retrospec tive, or ex poll fadto laws; they alledged that certain members of their society - had done what no person was permitted to do. Mr. B. read part of a law of N. Carolina, dating,««that 110 Negro or Mulatto Slave (hall be set free, except for meritorious ser vices, acknowledged by a licence of the Court ; and when any person (hall be set free contrary to this law, he may be fsized and fold as a slave," See. He also read a clause from another law palled afterwards, ftatiog, that feyeral persons having set at liberty their (laves contrary to law, and per sons having taken up and fold them, are doubtful of their validity of the sale, and that this law is pafied to do away all doubts of such validity. Mr. B. said, these ex tracts proved the assertion untrue. Mr. Gordon lamented that this dis cussion had .taken place, as it was certain | that wherever interest is concerned, some degree of warmth will be produced ; and when a petition was brought forward which might affe£t the property of many gentle men in this hqufe, and their constituents, it could not be expc&ed they would hear it with the fame calmuefs with persons wholly unconcerned about it. He said he had at tended to every thing which had been said upon the occasion. All that had been ad vanced in favor of the second reading of the petition, was, the rcfpe£iability of the per sons prefentiiig it, the opinion that would b« entertained of the petitioner* if their petiti on was not referred, and the merits of the petition itfelf. With refped ttf the perfor.s of the petitioners, he felt inclined to- do them every justice; but he did not think this any reason for aft in g upon their memo rial, iinlefj some good consequence could a -1 rife from it, any more than if they were the vilest persons on earth. As to the opinion that might be entertained out of doors, if , the petition was not examined, he was not afraid that the citizens of the United S-.atcs would believe the house could be so far loft | to its duty as not to look into a quedion of tiiis kind, but that it would be conceived, ! if rejected that they had nothing to do with j it. The ojher reason, the only material | one, was .as to the merits of the petition. I The gentleman from Delaware (Mr. Bay | ard,) who had examined the business with much cooluefs and ability, had dated that a certain ex pod fadto law of N. Carolina had occasioned grievances. Admitting there was such a law, what could this house do ? Could they pass a law declaring the law of N. Carolina null* and void. There would be no utility in this; but if there'was a law in N. Carolina that violated theconftitution, there was a clear remedy in the law .which organizes the judicial depaitment of the U nited States, in which it is said, if any law of an individual State interferes with the law of the United States, a person has a right to take advantage of the law of the United States. I here was -no neceflity, therefore, to call upon Congress for a re medy against this law. Indeed, he saw no thing in this Memorial which called for their interference, an4he was therefore againlt a reference, as a fa.ither difeuffion of it would only produce uneafiuefs in certain paVts 6f the U. States, without producing any good. Mr. Rutlf.doe observed, that notwith standing all that had been said, conGdering the present extraordinary date of the Welt- India islands and of Europe, he (liould in! silt, that " ftjicicnt for the day is tie evil thereof?' and that thtv oughtto (hut their door againlt any thing which had a leaden, cy to produce the like confulion in this conn try. If this wer? not done, the confidence of a great part of Union in the general {jovemment would be weakened. In the fouiljern dates, where most of their property cor.lifted of (laves, and where the reit way of no value without them, there w&s alrfrady a prejudice esilting that the northern and «a!teru Kates were inftilieal to this kind <.i property, tnough they were bound by the constitution from an interfered With it - but when they heard of the house giving countenance to a petitipn like'the pWiJsnt it would increase their uneaGnefs. He re ferred to what had, fallen from the gentleman from Delaware, refpe&ing fx poll tafto laws and thought a ceurt of juftiee the proper tribunal to fettle the hufinefs. Mr. R. he was indisposed, notvrithftaridlngtheiiLp, . nogyrics which had been patted upon tiu body of Quakers, to withdraw the cenfurts he had caff upon them. The gentleman fiom New-York lud doubted the gjiarges
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