The States experiencing the dilßcnlties srifing from numerous icprefcncative aflemblies have in several inflances diininilhed them ; ihe eiuilefs divisibility of power conlequen: on fiich numbers had fully I'atisried the people that tile want of ref ponliuility was the pernicious effect of a large representation ; they ai e therefore reducing tin;fa unwieldy bodies r.s fait as the) can.—Pcnnlyl ■»anra lie said, appeared to be far happier li;!ce the redu&ion of its alleinbly. A large fpheje of representation gave the peo ple a fairer opportunity io felec't ilie belt cha -1 a (ft .s ; i hey could exercise their own judgments unbiased and uninfluenced ; the trull was great er, which was conferred, and in proportion to its magnitude would be the public lolicitude that it fiould not be improperly delegated— beside.; which, it is, said he, in.poliible in a large fpliere of I epfclentation for candidates io piac'tice those little arts, lo common at elections—nor can they go round and take every little demagogue of the cljftrii't \.y theljanJ to i'eenre his vote. r_.ui opean examples had been recurred to, he would mention one circomilance which con firmed the jullice of hi? renrarks, those parts of > ii cat-fii itain which are divided into the Urgeft dittricrs, fend the Jin all elt number of represen tatives, (ucli as London and the county of York lhire, the latter tho containing more inhabitants than the ancient dominion, fends .only two mem bers to parliament—and the members of those dilhitfts, it is remarkable, have always been the ftaunchelt friends of the liberties of the people. In noticing the remarks of Mr. Giles and Mr. findley lie said, that the objert of reprefentarion was different from that oi giving information to their conftittients; legislation was their great bunnefs—and not making up weekly iarge pack ets to fend oft to the influential characters in the dillricts which the members represented on tlie floor oi that house. The people it is true have a right to be informed of public measures, and it is the indispensable duty of government to make provihon for that purpose ; and this ought to be done through the medium of the Poll-Office this medium is the only competent one, as it will open the way for that general information! which is neceflary to the security, and to the li- of the people. With refpe<!t to security from corruption by means of a numerous representation, he still re tained i»is former opinion ;he did not antici pate evils from that quarter. He observed that in thp warmth of debate he had before exprelfcd himfelf with rather more zeal, than he wished he had ; but as lie thought an undue degree of censure had been the con sequence, it was become neceflary in foine mea sure to julfify himfelf, by citing some examples to (new what exceli'es a very numerous reprelen tanve body may be guilty of. He then related a fa eft which occurred in Virginia, the Legisla ture of which on a certain time had acted In a legislative executive and judicial capacity on the fame occasion —he also inllanced a more re cent i act in tlie fecellion from their duty, of a conliderable body of the reprefenratives of I'enn fylvania—thefe fatfts demonilrated that a nume rous representative body was liable to a mob bifli Spirit. He next adverted particularly to some remarks of Mr. Giles, and concluded by flying rliat if the ratio is ac this time fixed at 30,000, it mud hereafter be encreafed, in doing which, foiue se rious difficulties may take place, Specially in re fpec't to tliofe Hates whole number of repiefenta tives piuft in that cafe be reduced—he thought 'fe bett therefore to agree at die piefeut aTarger ratio. Mr. Clark said he did not rife to trouble the House with a lengthy difconrfe, for he had al ways believed that long speeches answer no va luabte purpose ; he meant only to offer a few re marks had been said in oppofiiion to his lormer obiervations, and he hoped, that althouwh the gentlemen contend for the ratio of the only basis whereon to found the liberties of l || e^ eo P' e » "loiild not be ftigniaiized with theljame of an ai iltocrat, for voting in favor of a large ratio. Hitherto he had not borne that chara<ster, and he could not suppose himfelf yet in fed e#,~ onl ess he had caught the-diforder fitice he became a member of the prtfent House. Much had been said about the influence of the bank and that bank direcloirs were members of the Houle 0 f R ep| . e(e|Uatives . t)lebank he public property, and therefore he could not fee the fo.ee of the gentleman's arguments reflecting he dangerous influence of that institution, uti le s it was, that he was displeased at the diltri °m ' ha !' es - so m^ ch the stock being Ht l/ar r IO t he eastward ; and so ? C c .°™«S°cheque. 3n the fame predica inent he viewed the other objection* refpeL<lin<r th«» " ? f l ,e^ u,ators ' for did not know that any members of the House were speculators neither could he fee any danger from bribery. ' re .?.! y to jV,r - Findle y's observation, that more wisdom would be brought into the House J>y increafuig the ratio, he asked whether this would not also bring in more folly ? for the pro bability is, tli.it the ratio of botli wifdun) and fully will increase with the increase of numbers, and likewise of h.onefry and difboriefly : and with respect to the fmalluefs of the diilrict, or that it was fafer.for a small number to fend a member than a greater, he was of a different opinion, as he believed, that if ever the practtice of bribery should come into play in America, it would be easier for a reprefbntative to purchase a finall diflriCt than a large one : if ever the liberties of the people are endangered, it will not be by ihe finallnefj of the rep: cfeniation but by the corruption of electors and elections : This is the door which Congrcf; flioul.! guard in tlie drifted manner, and that will secure the people againfl corruption in the House. A gem lonian from Georgia lias obfervcd, that the disposition of a great ninny millions of dol lars lias l»een in the hands of a ■quorum of this Honfc, of whom it requires only 1710 form a ma jority ; on this Mr. Clark observed that the old Congrcfs which was compoled of a much smaller number, were entrufled with thedifpofal oflarger fuins, although there were sometimes only two members from the largest State, Virginia, and no complaints were heard of their conduit. But there is an argument which ought to have weight in the present queflion.—The Senate, although a much smaller body than this House, are fully competent to judge of our proceedings and of the fafety of the country : indeed, ("aid Mr. Clark, it appears very evident to me that we are not in want of a larger number in the House of Representatives to debate any queflion, if it be considered how much lias already been said on the (abject now before us. Mr. Vining exprefled much surprise that the subject, which to him appeared perfectly defina ble, fliould have occasioned the debate to travel so widely from the line marked out by tiie Con stitution. The pendulum Teems to vibrate be tween tlie numbers 81, 96, and tig ; and flioold that pendulum relt 011 any one of them in pre ference to the others, he could not suppose that u would affecft the liberties of America. Why, therefore, all this extraneous argument about a point offo easy decision ? We are sent here to adininifter the government ; the firll principles of which arc already fixed, so that neither branch crm encroach on the other. The Senate, the House of lieprefentatives, the President, have each defined powers ; and whillt thole remain. 1 (hall always believe the liberties of America are invulnerable. Underthis impression, Mr. Chairman, I shall vote for Itriking out 30,000, in order to accom modate the queltion to a medium. But 1 fliall do this 011 different principles from some other gentlemen ; notwithllanding I at the fame time confefs that the ratification of the firlt amend ment to the Conftitutiou ought to govern us in deciding this queltion. Thefpirit of the amend ment appears <0 me clearly to imply, that we should not fnffer the number of Representatives to exceed one for 30,000. I am here not as a person who shall exercil'e discretionary opinions, but judge by the lister of the Conflituiion : and in this cafe we may increase the number, but we cannot make it lef's after the enumeration. In the mean lime, until that enumeration is com plete, the representation remains as it has been hitherto, which I believe may be about one mem ber to every 40 or 41 thousand. If" we go upon theory only, I would enlarge the representation to its greatest: extent, and hand down the principle toj'uiuiiiy ir, letters of gold, that a very great repKfentatioii—that democra cy is the very best government that can potfibly be deviled, provided it were practicable to give it (lability. Next to a government as free as the ory could extend, we have the freeft iti the world ; a government of representation, which will in'- crease with rbe population! of the country, and the ten new States will always preserve an'equi librium ; but if you increase it to an extreme you may render it tumultuous, although it may be fafe. 3 Mr. Chairman, a great deal has been fait] 0 f the neceflity of planting (hong guards aaaintl the invasions of influential characters. I fear no corruption ; neither can I seethe oround on which it can make an entry into In the Britiih Parliament I will admit that cor ruption has planted her ftaudaril ; but that' is the natural conference of a very lai cr e repi e fentation, and a constitution widely" different horn ours ; and yet in lhat body, how many Ha rriots nave we not known to hold forth the lan guage ot freedom, as loud and warm as in any part of the earth !—But to what end would cor ruption be attempted in this government, which is in itfelf perfectly rotatory ? The Prefnleiv elecilive every four years ; the Senate bv in terlocations from two to fix years ; and the House of Representatives every two years. Then surely, fir, there is no need of g«ar<k to preveni t incroachinents of corruption ; and the av,u ment ,s nor ,n the lead applicable to the prefcnt Ijftemofour affairs. The difference between 242 , : t!IS ! !' r ' C J < and the , I another security to the citizen. Thev L s . power of lit- and death, of making laws'% 1 and Congrels have a concurrent le^fi-I- C> ■ fuel) affuivs as are pi oner. 01 ' •» t.ier barrier 111 favor of the lib--:' - - r I > pie ; for whilfi elections are ken run-o ' T ' 3e °" there is double security. ' ' a " d Calculations have been exhibited hv r I gentlemen; and 1 have likcwife ni-ule eve, ' al i | though not so old or experienced in caw"' al * J as some. But I find that all thole vibrate iV-'"" 1 ' 1 ® the ratios of 30 and 40 thonfand ; and j, • " te " tended that the people will | ;e better r°"* ed by adopting the lmall ratio, which nV/l "" the largeil rep, cfema, ion. But, fl :, 0 P V of the people are there who are not rei,ef*,V m ..beflavc, than notirifhment from nature. By ' cnict.lations, you may narrow down tl-'e o * " mem so much as to endanger itsdiflblutioi, . T'l if iiept 111 a due medium, you enfuie f The pre fern is a larger representation th lu ei' ther France or England boasts. 1 wifl," m Chairman, to support the llate sovernmems U I alio wish to support the federal government UC 1 cannot, however, fee the propriety 0 f coin, paring this to the government of Great-Brit d ," although that is called a government of rente fentation, confining of two Houses of Par' 111 enr, one of which is elective ; the lords a' 3 " hereditary, and the king can do no wroir. • an H it has hitherto been, 1 believe, the ~exi beV Go vernment, after ourown, in the world. And vet we know with how much reluctance Ireland ob tainsd a participation of the trade and co..,„.e rce " of Great Britain : although a Flood bellowed fort .1 wit h t he voice of liberty like a DemolHiencs Ilill nothing could induce the Britifii ministry to give way, until the volunteers effected it ; u \ have we not the volunteers, fir, i„ this country to protect our rights? Yes, fir : ,| )e American volunteers are perfectly competent to this service 1 o return to calculation of the ratio of repre". fentation. Admitting the state of South-Caioli na to return 200,000 inhabitants, then the Wio of one to 34,000 will produce too members- if the ratio of 30,000 be adopted, there will be'ai'i l.icreafe of 13 members, and afterwards ifce ra t,!°iT'in b^°" e . C ° ever > 40,000, until the Houle (hall confi.t of 200 members, after which tlieie (hall not be less than 200 Representatives, nor more than one Spr every 50,000 inhabitants. his, fir, is the (pirit of the amendment already adopted by nine dates ; and shall we nor exerci'e the dilcretionary power delegated to us by -iv ing celerity to the measure by a bill?'I a ?ree with tlie gentleman from Pennsylvania, tifat a ti ding expence is no object compared to 'the"fe cunty of the peo.de ; but ! am lorry to hear any thing of locality or the passions of the people in troduced, for tjie voice of the people ; for if lo cality and paflion were to govern this Houle, in stead of vix populi we should soon have occasion to term it by another name, the vox diaboli. 1 am under 110 apprehensions from the flock holders of the bank, or the (peculators in the funds ; for it is their interest to have a wife and giiod representation. The people who are ein [ ployed in the more simple path of agriculture, lernoved at a great distance, are 110: more inter eiicti in the security of the government than the more informed stockholder. As an example of ihe difcerninent ol 1 lie great commercial people of London and Briflol, I need only mention their choice of a Fox and a Burke, for until a late day tVjr. Burke was the champion of the people and the friend of liberty. If our Senate should take any unwarrantable it ride towards arillocracy, have we not the po*- er to check them ? No President can very well attempt it at any time hereafter; and we are perfectly secure in the prcfent time from all sus picion of corruption. 1 »ie fcate winch 1 represent contains 59,00® inhabitants, and yet J fb.ill feel myfelf acling in the line of my duty by voting for a ratio of 34,000, as coming nearefl to the spirit of the ameiid nie ir. A due proportion of firmnefs 1 think lie ce'diiry in the government, and we shall weaken it by any change which is not for the better. 1 fiirink from nothing, fir, but a breach of my duty, rfnd it is not the public voice, so much as the public good, that ought to be considered. In reply to the analogy introduced by the gen tleman from Pennsylvania, of a road, 1 will beg leave to mention another. Suppose a pillar was to be railed which could be easily effected by roo men, and that two or thiee hundred were em ployed, would not this, in the language of the veneiable Franklin, be paying dear forthewhif tle ? But this is a subjeCt which I should be fir ry to view with a ludicrous face ; it is a queflion of liberty, wherein the state governments have an equal fliare of security : and let the pendulum of the ratio light cither below or above 97, or it 1, there is equal fafety ; and all that has been 'aid goes to prove that as the population increas es, we ought ro fncreafe the representation ■ that ratio, and at present I think the nui-iber 34,000 will meet the sense of America.
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