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THE SCRANTON TRIBUNE-WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 1902.
t
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V
INQUIRIES MADE BY
THE COMMISSIONERS
(Continued
pahy, who continued tlic' crnsn-exiinil-nation
mull it few inlnutcH before 12.50,
Iho recess hour, when W. W. Hops, rep
resenting the Delaware, Lackawanna
nnil Western company, look ll up. Mr.
Mitchell WiiB still under crosH-cxumlnti-tlon
by Mr. Ross when adjournment
was hnd for the tiny. Today. A. 11. Mc
Ollntock, representing the Lehigh and
Wllkcs-Bnrre Coul company: John H.
Kerr, representing the Ontario and
Western company, and Simon l Wot
vcrton, representing the Philadelphia
and Heading company, will take turns
at questioning Mr. Mitchell. It Is ex
pected, however, they will not examine
him at any great length and that ho
will be relieved from the witness stand
this afternoon. Judge Gray mildly sug
gested yesterday morning that the
cross-examination or Mr. Mitchell was
becoming rather protracted.
The crowd In attendance at yester
day's sessions was again as big us the
court room would accommodate. Mora
ladles were In attendance than on any
previous day. Pour patrolmen. In charge
of Captain Williams, were at the door
to prevent a repetition of the Incident
of the day before, when the crowd
"rushed" the tipstaves and forced Its
way Into the room and later, In .another
attempt at "rushing," pushed n man
clear through the long glass panel of
the door.
Those having; business Inside or pres
ent by special Invitation wereulmlUed
through the judges' doorway. Others
were compelled to line up In two rows,
extending along the corridor, and wait
their turn to get In. After the room
was filled, no one was allowed to enter
until some one else had come out to
make room for him. Many miners were
among the spectators and laughed with
great heartiness when Mitchell made
some witty remark. Once there was
some mild handclapplng In applause of
Mitchell making a telling answer, but
It was so subdued it attracted no at
tention from the commissioners.
Bishop an Onlooker.
Bishop lloban was an onlooker dur
ing the morning session. He sat on the
platform to the right o the commis
sioners on one of the chairs reserved for
distinguished visitors.
The general trend of the examination
was practically similar to that of the
preceding days, although the attorneys
following Mr. MacVeagh were not as
ready as lie to provoke discussions
with the witness, confining themselves
more particularly to the question and
answer method ot developing the Infor
mation they would put before the com
mission. Mr. MacVeagh again dealt very gen
erally with the recognition question,
emphasizing the ill-effects on a com
munity following in the wake of vio
lence such as prevailed during the
strike, and the moral, If not legal,
wrong of preventing a man from sell
ing his labor where, when and bow ho
ehooeies, or limiting the amount of work
bo shall be permitted to do. Mr. Gowan
and Mr. Ross confined themselves
mainly to a consideration of the ques
tions at Issue as affecting their own re
spective companies' properties.
At the opening of the morning session
Mr. Lenahan presented his power of at
torney to represent'the non-union men.
It was a paper containing the names
of over 2,000 non-unionists, requesting
Mr. Lenahan and Mr. O'Brien to repre
sent them. For reasons, which he said
it was not necessary to mention at that
time, he would request the commission
not to disclose the names until they
proceed to take testimony to sustain
the averments of the statement filed
the night before with the recorder.
"You can hand what you call your
authority, or power of attorney from
these two thousand of your clients
more or less, to the recorder," said
Judge Gray, "but It will not go further
until the commission takes further
steps about It. We do nut keep any
thing that belongs to this record from
the public, but you may if you choose
hand in the papers and we will con
sider the matter, although it will not
lie part of the record, or bo filed In any
official sense upon which any argument
can be made that you are a party to
this proceeding. If you wish to do ho,
you may hand to the assistant recorder
the names that you speak of."
Then the cross-examination of Mr.
Mitchell by Mr. MacVeagh was re
sumed. Referring to the list of strike
"outrages," enumerated at Monday
afternoon's session, Mr. MacVeagh
asked the witness to give his opinion
of their rellex Influences on the men
committing them, which he said ho
hoped to he able to prove were mem
bers of tlv miners' union.
After remarking that he did not
propose to assume that the statement
of these outrages as presented was
true, Mr, Mitchell said ho believed tho
number of church-goer in the anthra
cite region was comparatively tis large
as In any other community, When
Mr. MacVeagh Insisted upon having a
response to his question, tho witness
said he would agree the influence was
not for good.
Proceeding, Mr. Mitchell stated that
he know "from his newspaper friends"
that the list of "outrages" had been
compiled by si New York Sun corres
pondent who was bitterly hostllo to
union labor, and who having no new
story to write about the strikers, went
river tho files of the Sun and made up
the list from his own previous des
patches, Growing Spirit of Lawlessness.
"What f inn trying to show," said Mr.
MiiuVeagh, "Is that there Is a growing
spirit of violence and disregard of law In
your organization; that Its members are
becoming moro and mora reckless of ro
fctralnt, and Impatient of It, mid that your
liillueuco over them is insufficient to la-op
them law-abiding and peaceable ns you
have described them to be. So Unit, If a
community that was my question-Is
aroused to a great pitch of excllcmont
and violence, and murders arc committed
in conscqucnca of tho assertion of your
right to deny other men the right to labor
for their living, thou I say tho conse
quences aro upon your head whether your
men committed tho murders, or somu
body else, and whether your motives aro
goodor bad; tho consequences remain,
"Well, Mr, MueVciiBh." said Mr. Mitch,
ell, "as to the fear that my lullueneo Is
not sufficient to deter men from the com
mission ot crimes, that is a contradiction
of tho claims often mrido about mo. You
Jiavo charged that men working In tho
mines have said to the men by whom thoy
were employed that John Mitchell was
their boss; you JiaVo dharged that I wu$
no Influential that If told thorn to go on
strlko thoy would go on strike. In other
words Unit they were lko so many check
ers that I could move hero and thero and
cut down wherever I wanted to.
Q. You aro not attributing that opin
ion to mo?
A. I say that has been said of me.
Ilora Mr. MaoVeugh quoted from an
address by Hon. Whlteluw Held, In
tc'doh tho declaration Is made that the
from Page 1.)
right of every nmnto sell his labor,
If he can, and bo protected In selling It
cannot be arbitrated any mora than
hist right to breathe. ,
Mr. Mitchell's comment on this was
Hint Mr. Held would have made tho
name statement about tho right ot peo
ple to sell coal wherever thoy choose,
which freedom ho claimed does not ex
ist. Some operators, ho nllcged, are
compelled to sell coal whore others di
rect. A man has no right, ho added,
to sell his labor for n dollar a day at
n mine If tha't would tend to reduce
the -two or three hundred other work
Ingmen's wages to n. dollar a day.
When asked whether or not he con
sidered It wrong to prevent a man from
working by Intimidating hlin, Mr.
Mitchell had recourse to his oft-used
reply of "t am opposed to anything
that Is unlawful." 'lie, luter, declared
It was not unlawful to tell a man It
was to his best Interests to stny nwny
from work during n strike. Sir. Mac
Veagh asked if he considered It unlaw
ful to morally persuade a man to quit
work If tho man's next door neighbor,
who had refused to stop work had had
his house blown up with dynamite tho
night before. Mr. Mitchell held that
thut did not enter Into the case; that
It made no difference If the neighbor's
house had been blown up the night be
fore or a year before.
Disrespect for Judiciary.
The alleged growing disrespect for
the judiciary on the part of labor
unions was made the subject of a
lengthy discussion between lawyer and
witness. Mr. MacVeagh contended
that whether the decision of a court
was favorable or adverse It was the
duty of the witness and other labor
leaders to continuously preach that the
welfare of all classes depended on a
growing respect for tho Judiciary. Mr.
Mitchell indicated he would hesitate
some time before ho would preach to
people to have a growing respect for
Judge Jackson.
"When In nri opinion we are called
vampires and loafers and denounced
as men who live upon the heart's blood
of working, men," excitedly declared
the witness, "wo have a right to re
sent It."
Mr. Gowan began his cross-examination,
as did the attorneys preceding
him, by eliciting from Mr. Mitchell an
admission that he knew nothing specific
of the wages or other conditions at the
mines of tho company he was repie
senting. Mr. Mitchell explained be had
only a general knowledge, but that
data would be presented later giving
specific Information supporting the con
tentions he makes.
Next he bad the witness tell what a
bituminous miner is actually required
to do in mining coal, and then took up
the various matters at Issue. The ex
amination was proceeded with substan
tially as follows:
Q. Now, coming to the question of the
eight-hour day, what class of labor do
you regard as tho most exacting and
laborious In tbc anthracite mines?
A. Well, I presume that the work of a
miner himself Is tho most difficult the
most responsible. Possibly. It Is not quite
as laborious as that of the man who shov
els coal, but the responsibility is much
greater.
Q. Why is it, then, that In the demands
which you have presented to the com
mission, you luivo not asked for an eight
hour day for the miner and laborer? A.
That would nccesn-rlly follow. Tho eight
hour day would come to them ns the
result of the eight-hour day for tho mine
laborers.
Would Receive No Cars.
Q. Do you mean to say that they could
not work except at the. time when the
others were working. A. No; It would
mean that If an eight-hour day were
adopted, the drivers and all the other
day laborers would stop it L the end of
eight hours. That of itself would stop
the miner and his laborer. He would re
ceive no moi o cars.
Q. And that Is tho only answer you
have to that question? A. Yes, lr, direct
ly. When we asked for tho eight-hour
day and specified the laborers, or parti
cularly specified them, we did it in order
to secure to them an Increase uif pay.
We expect tho contract minor and his
laborer to work only eight hours a day.
Q, How do you expect to secure mi
Increase of pay for the man working by
tho mouth or by tho day. by limiting bis
hours of labor to eight hours? A. Well,
if a man worked in ono of your mines
now 200 days In a year, and was paid
2.00 a day, be would receive In the en
tire year $100, lie would work 2.000 hours.
Tf you put him on an eight-hour day, be
would work 210 days, eight hours a day,
or 2,000 hours, and ho would receive J ISO.
Q. Now, you aro assuming, are you not,
that under oxlstlng conditions, or under
conditions which have lately prevailed,
that the mine Is not run full time, and
therefore tho 'breaker time can bo In
creased? That is necessary In order to
give those men an increase of wages, Is
It not? A. No, tho breaker runs tho
same number or hours that It has run any
other year, but you divide It Into a
greater number of days.
Q. Take a man who has worked every
day last year that the breaker ran, ten
hours, how Is he, at the end of tho year,
to have more money In his pocket by
having the hours reduced from ten to
eight? A. llo would not luivo more money
in his pocket. lie would simply hnvo less
work to do.
Q. Have you not once stated, Sir. Mit
ehell. before the Industrial commission,
that ono of the main objects of tho eight
hour law was to Increase the number of
men employed? A. That has been tho
Men, In general terms, that tho eight
hour day absorbs tho unemployed labor.
tj. And that Is one of tho great advant
ages. Is It not, from your point of view?
A. I find that In tho coal fields It has
not had that effect, because it hns In
creased tho Intensity of labor so much
that It hns not taken up or absorbed very
many of the unemployed. In .either
words, It hns developed In tho coal fields
that men do as much work In eight hours
as they formerly did In ten.
(. ltut unless the breaker time can bo
Increased, Iho reduction from ten to eight
hours will not Increase tho annual earn
ings of the men whoso thno will bo re.
duceil. A. Yes, sir; it would Increase It
twenty per cent. Q. Tho annual earn
lags? A. Yes, sir.
Eight Hour Question.
Q, I iay unle.ss the breaker time can bo
Increased. A, Why, If tho breaker ran tho
samo number of hours now In the year
that It did before, and a man worked
eight hours n day and received the samo
pay for eight hours thut ho formerly re
ceived for ten, he would necessarily, In
tho nggregato, receive twenty per cent,
moro wages at the end ot the year, Q,
Because they would hnvo to work over
time? A, No, sir; because they work the
samo number of hours they ordinarily do
In a year, Q. Hut you do not ask for an
Increase of wages. A. It amounts to the
same thing.
Q. Well, I will leave It thero. Now. Mr,
Mitchell, coming to tho question of the
weighing of coal, your constitution bus
something to say, has It not, on the sub
Ject. of weighing or determining tho
method of paying for coal mined? A.
Ye, sir. Q. Do you recall what It says?
A, The declaration of principles provides
for n limner system of welchlncr or mens.
urlug tho earnings of tho miner. Q.
"Shall be properly weighed or mens
Ulcd?" A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that tho constitution recognizes
tho propriety of paying for coal by mens,
urcment? A. No, you do not understand,
That Is not what It means at nil. Tho
word "measure" In thero simply means
tho correct method of measuring With n
tnpo the amount of entry a tnnn drives In
a mine. Tho miners bellovo that they
were cheated In the matter of measure
ments In soma mines, In that way, imd
that refers to tho amount paid for driv
ing entry work, or narrow work, ns wo
cull It here. It was Intended that there
should bo ti proper method of measuring
that, It did not refer to paying for the
conl by car. or anything of that kind.
Q. Hut still payment by tho car Is pay
ment by measurement perhaps not ,ns
you construe tho constitution, but It Is.
A. No, nnd I might sny that that was
also Intended to have application In the
cnBe of tho thick veins, where they ac
tually pay by cubical or lineal measure
ment. Q. How many of the mines In tho an
thracite field are so equipped as to en
nblo them to weigh tho coal? A. You
mean with scales? Q. Weigh It In any
way? A. I think that every mine In tho
anthracite Held In which" the coal comes
to tho breaker us It li loaded by the
miners, the coal could be paid for by
weight. Q. T am not asking you tf at. I
nm asking you how many of the mines
today are so equipped? A. I don't know.
I understand that several of tho com
panies are weighing conl now. I refer to
the Erie and some of tho others. Q. Do
you now know that they are a very
small proportion? A. Very small; yes,
sir. Q. And you do not know tho ex
pense that would be entailed In adapting
the mines to tho changed condition? A.
I do not know how much It would be. I
do not think It would be any very great
amount. Q. Aro you not aware that to
do that in mines not originally adapted to
the method of weighing would reduce the
output ot the colliery materially? A. No,
sir. Q, It would not hold back the load
Ing? A. f think very little. The scales
may be placed at any place before tho
conl reaches the breaker, and scales nre
now constructed so that a cur may be
weighed while moving.
Matter of Topping.
Q, Now, Mr. Mitchell, f did not quite
clearly understand your objection to the
method of paying by tho car which is In
vogue in so many of the mines In this
region. A. Well, there aro many objec
tions to It, but there Is ono objection,' In
particular, that bus, caused a great deal
of discontent, and I understand a num
ber of local strikes: That Is the rule
that requires a man to have a certain,
amount of topping on a car when the car
readies the breaker. It may be no fault
of the miners that It. has not the re
quired amount of topping on It.
Q. But Is not that a matter of agree
ment; that the miner Is paid by the car
with a topping of six Inches? And what
difference does it make to the miner,
supposing that the rate of pay Is adjusted
accordingly, whether he loads the car to
the top of the side or whether bo loads
it with six inches of topping? What dif
ference does It make to the miner? A. It
tli agreement with the company you rep
resent was that there must lie six Inches
of topping on the car when It reaches the
breaker, it Is absolutely Impossible for tho
minor to tell how much coal he must put
on the car when he loads it to muko six
inches on It when It reaches the breaker.
He may have put six inches on It In
good fulfil when it left the place ho
loaded It: but by reason of the long haul,
and the rough haul, the shawlng, and so
forth, or possibly, an accident en route,
that knocked the topping off or settled It
down, when it reached the breaker there
was not six inches on It, and then tho
miner is docked for light loading.
Q. Have you never beard of miners
loading cars in such ei way as to leave
nu undue amount of space between the
lumps? A. Yes, sir. Q. You do not think
that Is an Impossible thing to be done?
A. No, It Is not an Impossible thing. I
undeivtand It hns been done. Q. And
therefore If the coal were started with
six inches topping, but reached the sur
face with no topping, do you not think
that is some Indication thut Unit coal was
improperly londed? A. It might be, and
It might not be. O- But it might be? A.
It might be, but you enn see that under
the weighing system the miner would
have no Incentive to be dishonest. He
would not want to "crib" the car, us
the miners call that, because he would
he paid for the amount of coal he put
in the car.
Q. Now, Mr. Mithchcll, take the case of
n car loaded In tho way I have indicated,
.i that the topping has disappeared by
the time the 'iir reaches the pit's mouth,
tho weight of the coal would be Just pre
cisely the same in that car when It
started and when It reached the pit's
mouth, would It not? A. Yes, sir. Q.
And under the weighing system ho would
not be paid for any moro coal than he
loaded? A. No, sir. Q, Where would be
the advantage, then? A. Because he
would not be docked for the settling of
the coal enroute, and under tho present
system be Is docked If It ts less than six
Inches when It gets to the pit's mouth.
Q, Don't you agree that If ho agrees to
loud coal with six Inches topping that ho
ought to bo docked If ho does not do
it . A. How can he help . Q. Walt.
I say It he does not do it. I do not mean
n case where ho thought he had done so.
A. But It is a physical Impossibility for
him when ho loads It to say that It will
net settle. He may have put a foot of
topping on. Ho ought to be paid for tho
amount he puts on.
Matter of Agreement.
Q, That Is a matter of agreement. Is
not tho agreement that ho shall bo paid
for a car with six Inches of topping, de
livered or turned over to tho company?
A. i'es. sir; that Is the agreement, but it
is absolutely unfair. U. Well, that Is tho
bgreement. Isn't it? A. That Is what I
understand it Is not on agreement; It l
tho requirement of the coal company,
There Is no agreement. 0. The miner has
agreed to 'furnish that amount of coal,
under tho requirements of tho coal com
pany. A. Ho Is required to do that by
tho cpal company yes sir.
Commissioner Wat kins:
Mr, Gowan, before you leave the sub
ject of welshing coal, i should Uko In
hnvo Mr. Mitchell explain to tho com
mission how ho would provide, In rus
tho company paid for tho coal that was In
tho car on tho basis of 2,210 pounds to tho
ton, how ho would provide for an allow
nneo for the Impurities, A. I think tho
company and thu men should both select
representatives and 1 think a person
should bo docked for impuiillea. That Is
dono now.
Q. That Is dono now by their fixing nn
amount, as t understand, of twenty-seven
hundred to thirty-two hundred pounds, to
cover tho impurities, A, In some of tho
mines now tho miners havo what Is called
a cheek docking boss who with tho com.
pony's docking boss determine tho amount
they shall bo docked for impurities, whore
It appears to bo an excess nniount.
Iiy Commissioner Watklus;
Q. Hut veins vary so In their Impurities
thnt It Is necessary to mnko a different
allowance, It Is impracticable for ihu
miner to tako out nil the Impurities In
some veins, or ho can tnko them nut tit
somo veins to a greater extent than ho
can In others. They leave in u certain
amount and the companies permit it to
bo taken out in the breaker, It Is to the
advantage of both parties that that shrill
lia done. I npi at a, loss myself to sea
how you can get a uniform basis oi
weighing by the ton, granting your
claims, that would work out satisfactorily
on a basis of 2.21') pounds to tho ton no
less you ndd to it a certain amount for
Impurities, and that could not bo a fixed
amount all over tho region, nnd thero
would still bo friction in somo cases In
tho future,
The Evil of It.
A. It could not bo n fixed amount, and
ie Is tho fact that It Is a fixed amount
now that mukes tho system so unjust.
Will you permit mo to explain it? Sup
pose that two men were working in ad.
joining breasts, and ono of the men was
to load 2,S00 pounds ot clean coal in ins
car nnd send it out to bo weighed. Ho
would receive 1 cents for it. The man
wording right beside htm might send out
s
a car containing ten hundred pounds ot
rofuso matter In It. Ho would be paid 71
cents for his twenty-eight hundred
pounds. In other words tho man wlw
does not loud Impurities Is penalized tor
the man who docs! In order for tho com
pany to obtain from all sources a twent
ttVo hundred and forty pound ton of mar
ketable coal, they aro compelled Under
this system to hilllct a uniform penalty
on nil ot tho men regardless of whether
they load Impurities or not. Now tho man
who londs Impurities Is thone who ought
to bo docked for II, not tho man who
does not.
Q. How wilt you avoid that In tho fu
ture by this system of paying for a ton
of 2,210 pounds?
A. Now, 1 should sny thnt It would bo
Just ns easy to mako 5.210 pounds tha
basis of payment ns It ts to mnko 2.800
pounds tho basis of pnymeut. Then do
duct whatever docks aro necessary to
protect tho company against matter that
they cannot sell. Tho minors, of coitrso,
n ro not entitled to payment for matter
thnt cannot be marketed, but I think It
would bo more satisfactory to nit tho
miners to have tho ton 2,240 pounds, t
am freo to say that tho grlevanca may bo.
moro apparent than real with them, but
it Is everlastingly ther.e, They see It
every day but they are required to mine
a ton ot conl of 2,800 pounds or 3,100
pounds, and they cannot understand why
thoy must give that much coal for a ton
when tho companies are Helling the coal
always on tho basis of 2,2-10 pounds. It
may bo thnt there Is not a great wrong
done tho men and on tho whole, taking
them altogether, tho man may receive
In tho ugregato pay for all tho coal they
load, but the fact remains that the man
who londs tho Impure coal is paid a purt
of the money that ought to go to the
mnn who londs tho puro coal.
By Mr. Gownn:
Some System Necessary.
Q. Mr. Mitchell, I tmderstniid we nil
agree that no matter whether tho coal l
paid for by weight or not, some system
of allowance must bo mado to represent
the refuse which Is loaded with the coal,
L'nder the present system, ui arbitrary
figure of 2,700 or 2.SU0 pounds is estaD
llshctl. ruder that condition, it Is as
sumed that a ton of 2,240 pounds of clean
coal will be produced, and that tho rest
Is refuse? A. That was originally true.
Q. I may say that Is tho theory now;
whether It Is in point of fact true or not
I do not ask you? A. Yef. sir. Q. Now,
If you proceed to pay by the rate ot 2,210
pounds, you have still to make some al
lowance for impurities, havo jolt not? A.
For tho actual impurities. Q. For tho
actual Impurities? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How are you going to ascertain
those Impurities? A. Of course It Is going
to be extremely difficult to work out a
scalo as to how much you are doing to
dock; as to the exact number of pounds.
Q. I do not mean by the exact number ot
pounds. Lot mo put It in this way. You
cannot inspect every coal car. That Is
Impossible. Is It not? A. 1 should not
say that It is Impossible, but it is impos
sible. Q. But it is Impracticable? A. It
may be.
Q. You have got to arrive, therefore, nt
the average amount of impurities shipped
out during a given period in order to
determine what tho average deduction
should be? A. As far as It is possible to
inspect each ear, let that bo done, and
let the dock bo inado upon the person
who has loaded Impurities. If at tho end
of the month It Is found that there has
not been as much coal mined, marketable
coal, Including all the sizes that are
marketed, because the pea coal Is as val
uable us the larger sizes, though tha
miners are not paid for it at all if at the
end of tho month tho company has paid
for more coal of all sizes than they havo
sold or stocked, whatever they may do
with it. then some arrangement could be
made whero tho minors might havo a cer.
tain amount taken off of their pay to
compensate tho company; and. on tho
other hand, if tha docks made during
tho month have been excessive, so that
the company has sold moro coal during
the month that it has paid for, then they
ought to pay a dividend to tho miners.
That was the system in the Pennsylvania
company years ago. They paid a divi
dend at the end of the month or year, if
the'' solel more coal than thev paid the
miners for. Q. How does that get you
away from this difficulty, that when you
come to average for the amount of coat
which has been shipped, and make cither
deductions or pay dividends as you sug
gest, tho good miner is going to suffer by
reason of tho shortcomings of tiic care
less or dlHliouest miner? A. It would
mhiimi.se that very much, because 1 say
that tho docks should be made as far as
possible during tho day, during tha
month, upon the men who had loaded
tho most Impurities, and the men who
did not load them should not bo docked
at nil. So that, In tho end of a month,
theio might be a slight nniount either
coming to tlio miners or to bo paid by
them, but it would not affect each one
very much. It would minimize to the
very greatest degree the matter they
complain of.
An Interesting Colloquy.
It was at this Juncture the members
of the commission began their question
ing, alluded to above. Tho following in
teresting colloquy occurred between
Commissioner Watklus and Mr. Mitch
ell: .
By Commissioner Watklus:
Q. Yoii asked Mr. Mitchell a question
about this organization. Tha answer, I
believe, was that 11 was the purpose of
the organization to get every mine work
er In the country Into the organization.
That was it, was It not? A. 1 nnswered
that proposition affirmatively, that the
desire was to have every miner in the
Hulled States a member of our organiza
tion. That Is not Its solo purpose, how
ever. O. Would It not bo possible, then, for
you to tlo up all the fuel Interests of tho
country? A. It would hardly bo possible,
with the proposition Unit Is now sub
mitted to tho commission. Wo mnko nn
annual contract In tho soft coal fields,
This commission has power to fix a con
tract for a longer polled. That will put
us In tho position that If wo had any such
Intention wo could not carry It out bo
rnuso thero may bo a contract bore for
two or three years, or something llko
that. Tho contract hero might explro in
October. It always expires thero in
April, so thnt thero Is hardly n possibil
ity of what you hnvo suggested, oven It
wo wanted to do It. If It wcro our In
tention, wo would not permit a contract
to bo mado thnt would removo our power
to do It.
Q, Hut thnt Is a posslblo danger. Is It
not, under unwlso leadership? I do not
assume that you would bo unwlso enough
to do nnythlug llko that, but It Is one
of tho things that wo hnvo to consider on
tha commlslson. 1 would llko to hayo
your vlows on that subject, as to whether
It ts not posslblo. Suppose, for Instance,
that this commission gives a decision that
Is satisfactory for any term of years,
limited to 2, 3, 1 or S years, It is posslblo
then for your organization to force tho
operators In tho bituminous region Into
a condition whero nil the contracts
would terminate at a certain time, so
Hint they would all terminate, at tho end
of five years, If that Is the length of time
fixed upon by our decision'.'
A. It is not Impossible In the sense that
It could not bu done, but it Is not nt nil
probablo, . I should say that there Is no
possibility of Its being done, although U
would bo possible to dq It,
Q, Yes, TuU Is a dangerous power to
placo In tho. bauds of any uno organiza
tion, without somo restitctlous lu the
contracts?
A Dangerous Power,
A. I should think It would not bo a dan
gerous power, because they could do tho
sumo thing If they had sepnrato organiza
tions! If thero wero twenty organizations
of American coal miners, they might all
strlko at tho tamo lime. Thoy rould
mnko a coalition, but it seeuu. to mo that
tlio larger and moro powerful a labor or
ganization Is, the more conservative nnd
safe it becomes, because it is held to t
rigid accountability for Its acts. A small
organization may tscape public censure
for doing wrong. It may escape being
held to an accountability for whut It
docs, but an organization llko ours can
not. Commissioner Sp.ilding:
Q. Could tho operators do tho samo
thing, Mr. Mitchell? Could they form it
coalition and stop tho mining of coal
throughout tho United States?
Tim Witness! Thotf could do It ths
samo ns wo could. That Is especial!"
trtio right now when tho coal fields of tho
country nro passing into tho hands ot a
.few men.
By Commissioner Watklus: Well, could
tho operators really do that? The laws
would prevent their doing what your or
ganization could tlo, not being Incorpor
ated. They would conic under the bead
of the monopoly laws, and tho trust Inws,
nnd that sort of thing, If they sought to
control tho fuel supply of the country,
while you would not?
Tho Witness: I do not know any law
that would prevent them from shutting
down their mines. I mean thero Is no
statutory law to prevent them from doing
it that 1 know of. Howovcr, 1 do not
think it would bo nosulblo In our coun
try for that to be dono either by a la
bor organization or by nn organization
of capital.
Tho Chairman: Docs not society de
pend, nfter all, on tho old economic prin
ciple that all the great forces that lend
to uplift nnd carry on social advance
ment and civilization depend upon tha
average desire of individual man to bet
ter his own condition and to work for
wages, and for tho mnn who has property
to utilize 'It nnd got work from It. Isn't
thnt it, nfter all?
The Witness: 1 think that that princi
ple Is true.
Tho Chairman; If you can Imagine nil
men ceasing to work at once, the so
cial machine would stop, would It not?
A. Yes, sir.
The Chairman: Therefore, does It not
become exceedingly Important to consider
what agencies tend to restrict that lib
cray of action?
A. Well, I do not know that I quits
grasp the point.
Thu Chairman: I do not want to go
back to tho discussion between you nnd
Mr. MucVengh. which has been' so In
teresting nnd so protracted, as to wether
It does not become, very Important tt
consider how far any agencies are cal
culated to restrict that principle of action
In achieving tho Individual desire ot man
to work to support himself, although for
tho purpose of contributing to tho com
mon weal, and that of the owner ot prop,
erty utilizing it to get an Income from It.
It is very important, I say, Is It not, to
consider how far any agencies that are
in being or possible should restrict that
liberty.
Ought to Be Limitations.
The Witness: Well. I think that that Is
true; that there ought to bo limitations
upon It, and thero Is one thing It would
possibly be advisable to know about our
labor movements In America, that la tho
very rare Instances In which they seek
to limit tho amount of physical energy a
man may expend It Is dono only by re
stricting the hours of labor that ho may
work. We tlo not do as they do in Great
Britain. The report Is probably very
much exaggerated, but It Is charged that
the trado union movement there has set
a limit as to the number of bricks a man
may lay, the amount of plaster a man
may put on, the number of laths ho would
nail to tho wall, and all such things as
that. In our country the trade union
movement does not stand for such restric
tions. It asks restriction ot the hours ot
work, and then not only permits but ex
pects a man to work as hard as he in
able. They are not only permitted to do
all tho work they can do In tho hours of
work, but they are expected to do so.
Commissioner Wright: To avoid recur
rence to this later on, do you consider It
justifiable for tho employers in a certain
industry, to resist the demands of a labor
union, to paralyze that industry or any
group of Industries?
The Witness: No, I do not think it is
proper.
Commissioner Wright: Would the same
answer be mado If I should substitute
unions in stead of employers? Would It
be justifiable for a union to paralyze an
industry or a group of industries in order
to enforce its demand?
The Witness: I think either side should
seek somo other avenue of adjustment
than by paralyzing tho industry.
The Chairman: Yes.
Commissioner Spalding: Without pub
lic sympathy, do you think your union
could maintain Itself?
Tho Witness: No, sir; I do not.
Commissioner Spalding: Xo. Then If
you committed such an act as Mr. Wat
kins contemplates In his question, do
you think you could continue to hold tho
sympathy of the country?
The Witness: No, sir; T think our
union would Immediately disintegrate.
By Commissioner Walking: Q. Ths
thought occurred to me. In connection
with tho statement you made the other
day that tho president of tlio organizn-,
lion nas the right to interpret any doubt
ful points In your constitution. That
gives to one man a rather dangerous
power, does It not? I nm simply calling
your attention to that thought which oc
curred to me.
Change of Eules.
A. Yes. I might say. Mr, Commissioner,
and it may furnish Information to every
ono here, that I expect to recommend lo
our next convention a change In our lnw;
not thnt I think It Is absolutely neces
sary, but to remove what appears to bo
a reasonable doubt, I propose to recom
mend that tho miners ot the anthracite
field cannot be called upon strike by a
majority voto of our national executive
board, In other words, that wo shall In
vest tho samo authority in tho three
members from tho anthracite field ns
thero Is now in tho eighteen from the
bituminous Held, when tho question of a
strlko Is to bo considered, giving them
equal authority. I think that is fair, and
it Is what would bo dona anyhow. It
would bo the policy, whllo li Is not a
law, and I proposo to ask that It bo made
tho law.
Q. Do you know that reslstenco to tho
encroachments of your organization is
based upon fears nnd doubu as to Its
possible action In the future, and you also
know that that Is tho situation over a
largo section of tho bituminous field, as
well as tho anthracite field. For Instance,
in West Virginia, I believe, nnd If you
could throw any light on your attitude to
wards thoso subjects that would prevent
tho lying up of the fuel Industries of tho
country. It would help me personally as
n member of this commission, nnd guldo
mo lu my notion. T simply cnll atten
tion to It, because thoso thoughts nro In
my mind. I havo been nn operator, and I
am still Interested In tho soft coal biifcl
ness. I think tho whnlo commission
should havo light on thnt subject, nnd I
want It particularly.
A. I think thero Is no posslhllty of the
entire conl Industry being paralyzed, al.
though, under our law. It Is within tho
power ot tho board to do It. I might sny,
however, that Iho executive board will
never liiniiBiirnto a strike except by tl;o
voto of the members themdeves,
Q. I do not want to bo misunderstood.
You know thero are u largo number of
soft coal operators thut do not llko the
mothods of somo of your lenders and or
ganizers nnd nro still opposed to doing
any buslne'ss whatever with tho raited
Mine Workers of America, I rpeuk of
that because, as n muttor of fact, you
havo strikes on today at least, T luivo
not heard of them being declared off In
West Virginia uud osewhere. I bellovo
you havo one on with tho Falrmnunt
Conl company, from which tho Norfolk
unit Western railroad ships largely?
A. Yes, sir,
Number of Strikes,
Q, And along tho Chesnpeako and Ohio
ratlroud; thero shipments hnvo been re.
strlcted to fifty per cent this summer.
And In Weitern Pomwlvanlu, you have
bad quite a number of strikes, My oh
servntlou Is that their opposition u duo
to the samo reasons which exist In tho
anthracite region; they may misunder
stand the motives, but they do oppose
tho encroachments of your organizers.
One of tho reasons thero Is, they olnlm,
you are collecting a fund to force them
to these contracts; collecting from Indi
viduals working for them u per ccntngo
of their wages, sometimes amounting to
throo per ccnt.( ou't of which tho check
Welshman Is mild and that mav nhioUtit
to one-third of that three per cent. nnd'
the other .two per cent, going into your
treasury; that that Is for tho purpose of
rolslng a fund lo light them In the fu
ture. And thero nro qulto a number of
other reasons that you know of.
-A. Yes, sir. Cnll I sny that wo do not
havo thnt fund; wo htiVo never had a
larger fund than J200.000 In tho national
treasury. At tho 'present time wo mny
havo considerably moro than that, but
we have not any defense fund wo hnvo
no strike fund hi our organization nt nil.
When a strike Is on, nnd It becomes ne
cessary to support people, wo levy assess
ments. Only the money In tho national
treasury Is used for tho national pur
pose. When X spenk of n million and n
hnlt dollars, I tun referring to tho money
lu the treasuries of tho districts nnd sub
districts and tho national treasury, alto
gether. The nniount hold In the national
treasury Is usually nhotit J100.000.
By Commissioner Watklus:
Q. Havo you or your representatives
prepared any dnta Hint gives exnetly tho
number of days In which tho brenkers
or mines work eight hours, soven hours or
ten hours, during tho year 1001, for ln
stnnco? A, No, sir.
Q. You know thnt there is a srent deul
of broken time. Sometimes thoy work
three hours and stop, owing to nn acci
dent or shortage of railroad cars, and
that thero nro unavoldnblo things causing
them lo stop, and there nre a great many
holidays. 1 think It would be Interesting
for tho commission to know and It bears
directly on this eight-hour subject hero
ns to how many days tho employes work
during the year throe, four, five, seven,
eight, nine and ten hours. Wo also know
flint during the year 1891 the collieries
worked nearer up to their full capacity
than ever before, that tho market took
moro coal than ever before, and that Is
a fair year to take as an example. If
you restricted the output any moro than
hist year you would probably have con
siderable suffering to tho public; Is not
that so? They needed the coat?
A. Yes, but they only worked nn aver
ago of lflO days last year. You see. If
they worked eight-hour days they would
have worked moro than thut.
Q. But the difficulties would still exist
with the eight-hour day, in tlio way of
securing cars and accidents happening,
nnd my own opinion Is that it would bo
Interesting for you nnd the commission
nnd the other side to know how many
iluvs were broken davs. and whether or
not the minors did actually suffer to the.
extent that It Is supposed in the state
ment that they worked ten hours a day.
My Impression Is that they did not work
ton hours very many days.
Did Not Average Eight Hours".
A. I agree with you. Wo have not tho
data as to the number of hours the
breakers ran, but I am In accord with
you that a great many of them did not
work eight hours, on the average.
Q. And that they did not work ten
hours many das? A. I think you nre
quite right: I think a great many com
panies did not work ten-hour days.
Q. And in making a change to eight
hours, the question Is. whether it would
not work out an injustice to the miners?
That is a question that comes up In con
nection with that, and it hns occurred
to me thnt you or your officials might
have that information A. No, we haven't
it; but tho companies havo it.
Mr. Brownell: We will give It to you.
By Commissioner Clarke:
Q. In those 190 days that thoy worked
during 1M1 T believe "that It whnt you
stated? A. Yes, sir. Q. Does that mean
IPC days In which they started to work
and worked more or Ic-s, or does it mean
IfiG full ten-hour days? A. It means 106
full ten-hour days that they started.
Commissioner Wntklns: I wish we
couPX havo something that would be
fairly representative of the average con
ditions; perhaps you could agree with
the companies ns to how that would be
made up.
Mr. Brownell: We hnvo nil that data.
By Commissioner Wright:
Q. Will you tell the commission what
you menu, from a trades union point of
view, by the recognition of the union?
A. Yes, sir. The recognition of the union,
ns X understand it, means that the em
ployers shall mako agreements regulat
ing the hours of labor, wages, etc., with
iho unions, and that the union, as such,
shall be held responsible for the rigid
compliance with that agreement.
Q. Thnt is different from the popular
Idea of recognition of tho union, la it
not? A. It Is very much so, Indeed. It
also means that employes shall select
whomever they choose to represent them
In their meetings that thoy shall exor
cise their own Judgment about it. Th
unions themFolvcs prefer that adjust
ments should tako place between the em
ployes themselves and tho companies. If
that can be done, that tho actual em
ployes will adjust grievances: but where
they cannot do It. rather than strike, wo
prefer the officials of the unions going in
and adjusting tho differences. Q. That Is
what you mean by recognition, from the
trades union point of view. A. Yes, sir.
For Disciplining Members.
Q. Another matter. Aro there any pro
visions In your constitution and by-laws
for tho discipline of your members for
any acts which individual members may
commit? A. The constitution itself has
not got that provision; wo may havo
thoso In tho agreements our district
agreements may havo them in somo
places. X am not so well acquainted with
that feature; but our local unions disci
pline their Indlvldaul members they have
that power. Thoy may expel tholr mem
bers from membership. Q. For acts com
mitted outside of the union? A. Yes,
acts thnt would bo contrary to tho best
Interests of tho union.
Q, Any nets of violence or anything of
that kind. A. Thoy could do so. Thero
nre several cases I havo in mind now
that occurred during this strike; for in
stance, the unfortunate murder of this
man, Sweeney. All our local unions hold
meetings and denounced that In the
strongest terms; dehounced those acts.
At Shenandoah, when Blddlo was killed,
our unions hold meetings nnd denounced
It, and they have dono everything lu
tholr power ngaist such acts. They could
not do moro than express their condemna
tion, of course, which they did; and
that hns been true of our unions in mnny
other places. Thoy hnvo dono everything
In their power to prevent lawlessness nnd
havo condemned it, wherever it has oc
curred. Tho Chairman: Do your officials report
to the organization or Its executive com
mlttco nets ot violence that nra detrimen
tal to tho reputation and good order of
your organization?
Tho Witness: During this strlko we
had peaeo committees at ono time to try
to keep order, to tit times to protect
property, Where nets of lawlessness
wero parmlttc'd they wero usually, many
times, reported to tho committee or local
executive boards; generally It was
through tho papers, I will say.
By Commissioner Wright:
Q, Will yon explain to tho commission
what your view Is, from it trade union
polul, of the black-list and the boycott;
what l the difference?
A. There Is practically no difference;
they aro tho samo weapon, If anything,
tho black-list Is tho moro baneful, I do
not know whether the black-list Is used
uuw lu tho anthracite fields, but many
of tho miners believe It has been and
believe It is. If a man loses his Job In
one mine he may hunt nil over the uu
thruelto icglmi for iinother job and bo
unable to get one, without nny reasons
being assigned by thoso from whom he
seeks employment, llo is not told that
(hero Is anything against him, but he is
uuablo to get work, Many years ago that
was true In tho entire coal industry, from
ono end ot tho country to tho other. A
man might go all over the country hunt
ing for work In the coal fields and would
not bo able to get It. I do not think
that that Is so now, unit I do not think
that has been done to any extent In tho
antliruclto field during recent years,
Q. You condemn both tho boycott and
tho black-list, do you? A. Yes, lr, l do;
except as I modify tho boycott to whero
It Is legal and lawful.
Mr, Gowan then brought out the dec-
larnlldn of' Mr. MltchelfrmmJerit-the
time ot the last Indianapolis conven-
(lion, m vi! en. i lie mirier' -prcsiufin
spoke In. apprehensive tones or t,he
drend possibility of nil tho miners
quitting work, ... !. .....J
In discussing the Hnzleton conven
tion, which culled the strike, Mr. Mitch
ell denied thut hu opposed ntrlke, but
only tlie Utile of calling It. lie eald he
favored a strike this "year. The voto
against him was ln'thp,proportlon of
about CO to 40, he said,
Mr. Gnwiiu brought hid examination
to ti close nt 12.25, and then Mr. Hose
took Up the case for the Delaware,
Lackawanna and Western company,
Exnminetl by Mr. Ross.
Mr. lloss begun tho proceedings with
nn Inquiry Into conditions in the. Illi
nois coal fields, with a view of show
ing that the conditions here nre com
paratively good. Mr. Rosb is closely
Interested lu some Illlnoin coal oper
ations, uud consequently lu n position
to ask some very particular questions.
In' response to Mr. ltoss' questions,
Mr, Mitchell told In detail of the- work,
wages and other conditions In the dif
ferent Illinois fields. The w'ltness ad
mitted lie worked steadily" for about
eight hours, when he worked In the
mines prior to 1807. He usually, with
his partner, loaded ten tons or more.
Ho went to work nt 7 o'clock In tho
morning nnd worked until about 3
o'clock In the afternoon. Ills earning!1
were about $2 a. day. Tho samo work,
ho said, wouid now tiring htm ?G a day.
His highest earnings for a year were
about J7i"0, In the Illinois field two
miners work together as "buttles" and
divide their earnings equally.
Taking up the work In the anthracite
region, Mr. Iloss Inquired as to the
number ot hours worked by contract
miners. Mr. Mitchell declared they
work seven, eight and nine hours, ac
cording to how long the breaker ran.
Sometimes they work fourteen hours.
On the average, they work longer than
the breaker.
The witness admitted tliat In District
No. 1 there Is a local rule of the union
forbidding minors from working on
days when tho breaker is Idle, and ex
plained thnt this was for the purpose
ot preventing favored miners from
making extra money at tho expense of
those who were not favored.
The new management of the Dela
ware, Lackawanna and Western com
pany, Mr. Mitchell said, had done much
to help destroy this system of favorit
ism. The witness could give no specific In
stances of excessive dockage, of chil
dren being forced into the breaker, or
any of the other ills complained of, as
far as the Delaware, Lackawanna and
Western collieries were concerned. H
said other witnesses would tell of those
things, if they existed.
No Company Stores.
Mr. Ross brought out the fact that
his company has no company stores
and only 280 company houses, the aver
age rental of which is $5 a month; also
that 1,605 of the mine employes own
their own homes. Mr. Mitchell re
marked that very likely ihey were cov
ered with mortgages.
By Mr. Ross: Q. Mr. Mitchell, you
have given us a reason why we- should
Increase tho rato of wages to our miners,
that "the wages of tho anthracite mine
workers are so low that their children
are prematurely forced Into the break
ers and mills instead of being supported
and educated upon the earnings ot their
parents." A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you cite to me any specific in
stance of that kind among our employes?
A. Yes, Blr, your breakers aro full of lit
tle bits of boys, and tho mills around hero
havo got many little girls working in
them who are children of your employes.
Q. Aro they forced in there by reason
ot tho fact that their parents cannot
mako sufficient wages to prevent thorn
from doing that? A. X can imagine no
other reason that would induco any par
ent to send his little children to work In
stead of to school, except that they re
quire tho money to live upon, except in
rare instances where parents may bo in
human. Q. I wish, Mr. Mitchell, if you can.
before this hearing is over, you would
cite some specific instance where our
employes, by reason of their inadequato
wages, aro required to forco their chil
dren into the mills or Into the breakers.
X am Interested with you. I think equally.
In improving tho conditions of our em
ployes, nnd If you can cite any instance
of that kind, I want to assure you that
wo will do tho best wo can to remedy tha
conditions and bring that about.
Q. Now, Mr. Mitchell, do you tako th
position before the commission that tho
minors' helpers nre entitled to ns hlgti
earnings as tho miners themselves? A.
No, sir: I do not.
Q. Why not? What Is your reason for
that? A. They do not require tho skill
that the minors do. Thoy havel not tho
responsibility that tho miners havo and
they do not require tho degree ot training
that tho miners do. Those uro reasons
why the wages should not necessarily ba
as high.
Q. As a matter ot fnct, they aro mera
apprentices, are they not? A. Well, they,
aro laborers.
Are on the Way.
Q. What Is that? A. They are laboreis,
I do not know that they ara apprentices,
although they aro on their way to the
goal whero thoy finally get to bo con
tract minors.
Q. Yes, and Is It not a fact that very
few helpers work as helpers after they
havo been working in that capacity for
two years? A. I presume that most of
them try to get a certlflcato and becoma
a skilled miner.
Q. As a matter of fact, thoy do, In thl.i
territory, do they r.ot? That is, in pros
porous times llko these, when there is a
demand for coal? A. Thirty-six thousand
miners havo managed during tho last fif
teen years to get to bo contract miners.
Q, Coming down to your second de
mand, Mr. Mitchell, I want to sea if I
understand that right. I tako It that
your meaning Is that tho hours ot labor
should bo reduced from ten to eight
hours, nnd tha result of this Is an lu
crenso In tho rate of wages, by tho elght
hour day, Is that tho final conclusion
of that demand? A. That is w)iat would
bo the result; yes, sir. It comes down
to an Increase of 20 per cent,
Q, 1 believe it amounts toon Increase'ot
23 per cent, when actually worked out.
Q, Twonty-ilvo per cent. A. Provided
thero was not nn increase In the Intonslty
of work which would surely follow. It
would not amount to as much ob a 20 per
cent, Increase to the companies, 'likely,
Q. And by making that change, grant
ing this demand which you made, tha In
crease hi wages would bo 25 per cent.,
and the output, that la tho production,
would bo how 11111011',' Twenty-five, per
cent.',' A. I should say not, , I do jiot
think that It would decrease your annual
production nt nil. '"' '
Q. Why not? A, Because you doPuot
work an average of eight hours a 'djy for
all tho working days thero are in uib
year now.
Q. Have you any Idea how many hours
wo do work? A. 1 havo soino data upon
It, but 1 havo not got It right hero,
Q, Do you think that Is a fair demand,
a reduction from ten to eight hours? A.
Yes, blr; we would not mako It otherwise,
Q. Thnt means that It Is fair for live
miners to work, all of them, eight hours
a day, for six days In tho week? A. Yes,
sir. '
Question of Earnings,
t). If the rate of wages paid to tho
miner for mining n cur of coal wusi fair
you would not bo making tilts demand for
paying by weight, would you? If tha
miner was paid a. sufficient rato of wages
for mining each car, so that his earnings
LCoutiuued on Page 5-1
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