» CONGRESS. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Friday, March 18. Debate on Mr. Living(l»n'* resolution continued Mr. Livinfjlon'c fpcech concluded. 2d. The second argument that had been used to deprive the legislature of any right of interference, in cases of this kind, was drawn from the uniform prafticeof the government ever since its formation. The gentleman from Sonth Carolina (Mr. Sqiith) who made this objection, had cited one instance ot this practice in the resolution directing treaties to be published with the laws, and had adverted to the appropriations for the Indian treaties (under the general liead of the military establishment) as fa- Vo . r '. n ? h" principle. As to the refolntion, Mr. Livingfton laid there was no doabt that treaties, ■when properly fanftioned, ought to b« observed, and therefore the refolvticm was proper, that they ought to be promulgated On the fubjeft of ap propriation, it had been well observed by a gentle man from Virginia,-(Mr. Giles) that the house ex ercised as much diferetion in granting the supply, by way of addition to the military appropriations as if it had Bfcen given fpeeially for the purposes of the treaty. But the truth is, said Mr. Livingfton, "that an accurate examination into the communica tions of the Executive, in analogous cases, and the proceedings of this house, will form a strong, I think an irrefiftable argument in favor of the resolu tion. It would appear, he said, fi*m the view he was about to take, that from the firft establishment of the Constitution until the negociation »f this treaty was begun, the executive had been in habits of free communication with the Legislature as to our external relations : that their authority, in ques tions of commerce, navigation, boundary and inter course, with the Indian tribes, had been expressly recognized even when difficulties on these queftiont were to be adjusted by treaty, The firft cafe related to a provlflon for an Indian treaty, and was suggested by the President in a tneffage of the 7th of August 1789, in which he lays, If it should be the " judgment of Congress that it would be most expedient to termibatc all differences in the Southern diftrift, and to lay the foundation for future confidence by an amicable treaty with the Indian tribes in that quarter, I think proper to suggest the confidevation of the ex pediency of instituting a temporary commission foi that purpose, to consist of three persons, wbofe au thority (hould expire with the occasion." In coufequence of this meflage, Congress took into consideration the expediency of the measure recommended to them, and palled the aft of the 36th of Aug. in the fame year appropriating 20,000 dollars for defraying the expence of nego tiating and treating with the Indian tribes, and au thorifingtbe appointment of commrffioners. The President having appointed commissioners to treat under the direction of the aft,'gave them inllruftionS whi.h were communicated to the house and from which this is an extract. " You will please to observe, that the whole sum that can be constitutionally expended is 20,00 a dollars, and that the fame cannot be extended. Nothing having been effected by the commis sioners, tht President mentioned the business again in his address to both Houses on the ift of Janu ary 1792. In the month of March in the fame year, the house of representatives adopted the following re faction, recommended by a feleft committee ; " That provision ought to be made by law for holdings treaty to establish peace between the U sited States and the Wabaih, Miami, and other nations of Indians, North Weft of the river Ohio ; also for regulating trade and iptercour fe with the Indian tribes* and the mode of extinguishing their claims to lands within the limits of the United States." On the 29th March following, a billpaf fed the house of representatives the title of which was amended in Senate and pasTed, appropriating an,ooo dollars for purpoies expressed in the pre ceding resolution. . Mr. Livingfton said, this cafe was important, as St was the firft communication lelative to a treaty that was made under the Constitution, and attentive examination of its different parts would (hew that very different ideas were then entertained from those yrhich were now enforced. He would firft observe, that the diferetion of the house of representatives, as to commerce with foreign nations, flood precisely on the fame footing, with that whieh they ought to exercise in regulating intercourse with the Indian tribes j that if one could be done without their concurrence by treaty, the other might also. And that therefore, when the President recognized their right to deliberate in one cafe he virtually did it in the other. Let us then attend to the language of the meflage (said Mr. Livingfton) and we shall find that right of- deliberation most expressly refer red to. "If it should be the judgment of Con gress that it would be moll expedient," what can be more explicit thau this language, and again, 44 1 think proper to suggest the consideration of the expediency of instituting a temporary commission." Here the fame diferetion is not only applied to, but the President at that time supposing that no iraplieated power could deprive Congrcfs of the right to regulate trade and intercourse with the In dian tribes, submitted to their con/ideration, the expediency of appointing commiflioners, they paflT ed the necessary laws, and he inftru&ed the commif ioners, nbt in the language, that is now held, that they mijfht ftipulste for the payment «f any sum, and that Gongrcfs would be obliged to find the means; but he tells them the " only fitm that can be coifftitutionally expended is 20,000 doltars, and that the fame cannot extended why (if the doc trine is true, that we are under an obligation to . comply with'the terms of every treaty, madety the President and Senate) why did he fay no further sum could ronftitutionally be expended ? If that doftrioe were indeed true, his language would have been—use what-money may be necessary, contract for the payment of it, in your treaty, and Congress are constitutionally obliged to carry your ftipula tiorrfirmr effect. "" ; The resolution above quoted, Mr. L. said, was Important, a»it proved that Congiefs then supposed that they ought not only to provide ky law for hcld inga treaty vitji the Indians, but that they also had the power, and.ought to exereife it, of regu lating trade ahd intercom fe with the fame people, and of preferring the mode of cxtrnguilhinj; their claims to lands within the United States; but all this, said he, it is now difcovercd may be done with out their aid, by treaty. The second instance of the exercise of this dread ed diferetion, was in the law of the 3d of March, 179-1, appropriating 20,000 dollars to enable the President to effect a negociation of the treaty with Morocco. This originated in the Senate, and is a decided proof, that neither the President nor Se nate had, at that period, any idea of the moral obligation that is now difcovered,.or they would, w/thnut the formality of a l?w, have at once stipu lated with the new Emperor for the payment of the peceffary sum, which rauft have.£#fi*4>rovided by the house. In a third cafe, the President had thought pro per to take the sense of that house in a business that of all others demanded secrecy, and under circum fiances that would have prevented his making the application, if he had conceived himfelf at liberty to aft without their concurrence : he adverted to the meflage of 30th December, 1790, where the President fays, " I lay before you a report of the Secretary of State, on the fubjeft of the citizens of the United States in captivity at" Algiers, that you may provide in their behalf what loyou shall sum expedient. No aft having been pasTed by Congress, in con sequence of this mefTage', the President did not conceive himfelf authorized to bind the United States by treaty, for tiie necessary ransom of their citizens ; and therefore nothing was concluded until after a subsequent meflage and previous appropria tion in the year 1793, when another meflage was sent relative to the negotiations with Morocco and Algiers, then pending, " while ic is proper (he fays) that our citizens (hould know that Jubjefts which so much |concern their interests and feelings, have duly engaged the aatention of their legislature and executive; it would ft ill be improper , that some part of this communication should be nudeTinown" —part of this meflage, therefore, was confidential ly communicated, which fltew6, (Mr, L. said) on some oecafions it was not deemed iinpruJent to trull this house with the secrets of the cabinet. And in consequence ef mefTage, a law was pasTed ap propriating 100,000 dollars for the purchase of a peace with the Algerines. It was oftcnfibly ap propriated to the above gentral purpole, but the intent was well undsrfiood. The next tranfaftion that he (hould quote. Mr. L. said, as favorable to his doctrine, was the mes sage of the Prefiderit of the Jth Dec. k793» a "d the measure to which it gave rife. The President fays, " As the present situation of the several na tions of Europe and especially those wfrh which the United States have important relations, can not but render the date of things between theij and us matter of interefling inquiry to the legisla ture, and may indeed give rifo to deliberations to which they alone aie competent, I have thought it my duty to communicate to them certain correspon dences which have taken place." This meflage, Mr. L. „said, accompanied the papers relative to France, to Great Britain and to Spain : and a queflion would immediately occur, whatwerethe deliberations to whieh the Prefideflt then thought the legislature alone was competent, and which he therefore thought it bis duty to com municate. All our disputes with the natiohs re ferred to in the meffagi., were such as on the new conflruftionof the treaty power, he could have ad justed by com pa ft without any reference to the house as reprefeatativei; but it is plain, by the exi press words of the meflage, that he did not believe that conftruftion. It was no answer, Mr. Living. (lon said, to the argument drawn fronj this t ran fac tion, to fay, that the President only submitted the queftien of war or peace to the legislature by this meflage. 1. Because the message related to the three, principal natiom in Europe, ancL he never could have imagined that Congress would have de- iberated on going to war with them all. 2. This was evidently not his intention, because a* soon as measures were propsfed in that house, which he supposed would lead to i rupture with one of those nations, all these measures were palsied by the appointment of an envoy and the commence ment of negociation. - y - 1 It vrai clear, then, that the Prcfident thought the matters communicated by hisraeffage, which re lated to commerce and boundary, were conftitu- , tionally veiled in the difaretion of Congress. This idea was corroborated by the words of a meflage relative to the negeciation with Spain. " And therefore, by am 1 with the advice f.l consent of the Senate, 1 appointed eommiffioiters plenipoteh-; tiary for negbciating and «oncluding a treaty with I that country, on the several fubjefts of boundary, navigation and commerce, and gave tham the ?n ---ftrudlions now commonicated". Why, fiid Mr. Livingfton, communicate the inftrudtiom to rain ifters ? Beraufe they related to commerce, ro navi gation, to boundary, on alt of which fubjefts the President ,must have thought the legiflaturc had a right of decision. He mull have thought so at that period, but, unfortunately, all precedent »f free communication ended here. Mr. Jay's nego ciation began ; and a different conllruftion was as. fumed. »■■■ ■ • .1 From thiY view qf the acts of government, he ttufted that a far,different impreflion would be made than that the doctrine he coatended a new one, originating in opposition to the English trei. ty, anii a define to diforganfze the government. That, on the contrary, it had been declared by the President, acquiesced in by the Senate, and a&ed npon by the house of Reprefentativej. 3- ° ne test of eonftruftion remained for examination. It had been relied on by a member from S. C. (Mr. Smith) he would therefore notice it. It was the present opinion of the citizens of the United SAtet, Mexprefled by their town meet ings ard by their legjlkturea. He did not suppose the fenfc of the people on this fubjeft eould be per fe&ly colle&ed, it could only be known by their applications to this hbufe ; and in thofean appeal was made to that reiy discretion which it Was con tended did «ot cxift, The petitions infarct of th« treaty, and tkofe which were presented sgain& >t, both acknowledged the right of the hotfe to mter fere The legislatures spoke. the fame language . some had approved ef the conducl of those who made the treaty ; but all, he believed, were silent as to the power of this house. As to the town meetings, he did not exped to hear them quoted as authority by the gentleman wh~o tiad introduced them. His fellow-citizens of' New York, Mr. Li vingfton said, would be surprized, when they heard the name of the gentleman who had ulliered them en the floor tof that house fines they were there, however,- let bs hear the language of their to the President. They need net be ashamed of it, and he would answer for its contradicting the pofi tiori of the gentleman who quoted it. CHe then read several extrads from the New York resolves, to (hew that they thoHght the rights of the house were infringed by the treaty]. Thus, said Mr. Livingfton, to whatever sourCe of argument we refer, we find the constitutional powers of this house fully eflablifhed ; whether we recur to the words of the eonflitu'ion, where the power is expressly given, and is to be loft only by implication, whether we have recourse to the opin ions of the majorities who adopted the conftitulftoo, to the uniform pra£Hce of the|government under it, to the opinions of our conllituents as exprefled in their petitions, or to the analogous proceedings in a government conftrudted in this particul*, like our own. Yet, afteF all this, we are told, that if we question thefupremacy of the treaty-making p»w er, we commit treason agai'nft the constituted au thorities, and were in rebellion againfl government. These were serious charges, and made in improper language. He had not been so long in public life as the gentleman who made them ; but he would boldly pronounce it unparliamentary and improper. Besides, this language is wrong in another view.- It may frighten men of weak, nerves from a worthy puifuit ; for my owa part, when I heard the mem ber from Vermont, compare the authority of the President and Senate to the majsfty of Heaven, and the proclamation to the v»ice of thunder ; when he appealed to his fctvices for his country, and (hewed the wounds received in her defence ; when he completed bis pathetic addrifs by a charge of treason and rebellion, 1 was, for a moment, atlon ifhed at my own temerity ; his eloquence so over poweied me, that " Methought the Clouds did speak and tell me of it, 14 The winds did sing it to rae, and the thunder, " That deep and dreadful organ-pipe,pronounc'd " The chargcof trcafin I was however relieved from this trepidation,(con tinued Mr. Livingfton) by a moments reflexion, which convinced me that all the dreadful confequen ccß arose from the gentleman's taking that for grant ed which remained to be proved. He had only af ftimed that the mcafure was uneonftitutional, and then the reft followed of eourfe. From my foul, (said Mr. Livingfton) 1 honor the veteran who has fought to establish the liberties of his country; I look with reverence on his wound ; I feel humbled in his presence, and regret that a tender age did not permit me to (hare his glorious deeds. I ean for give every thing that Juch a man can fay, when he imagines the liberty for which he has fought is a bout to be destroyed; but I cannot extend my charity to men,, who, without the fame merits, coolly re-echo the charge. Aaother obfervatiofy had escaped from the fame member in the heat of debate, which another from South-Carolina (Mr. Smith,) to whom he before alluded, had repeat ed with high encomiums. It wasthisthat encroach ments were more to be apprehended from the po pular, than from any other branch of government. This doflrine, Mr. Livingfton considered as high ly pernicious to liberty; and as highly unfounded in fa&, at it was improper. Where, he aflced, will gentleman find fads to juftify their opinions. If it were true, there would now be none but popular governments in ejciftence ; they would have encroached on the kingly power, until alt power was centered in them alone. The fad re verse, however was the fail. All Europe had once been free ; all Europe with the exception of Fiance and Switzerland, were now in chains. Where, then, would historical fafls be found to juftify the charge ? ] n the obsequious Parliament of Britain ? In the houseless assembly of Naples, Or the degra ded Cortes of Spain ? In the hundred years sleep that had involved tfie dates of Portugal ? would gentlemen look for them in the tyranny of Ruflia and Germany ? Inthe military despotism of Prussia, or the eccUfiaftical one of Rome ? why, then, if unsupported either by theory orfaft, are the peo ple told, be on yotir guarc against the popular part of your conftitinion ? Shut your eyes to the con duct of the Executive and Senate, they can never encroach, but beware of the ambition of yoar Re presentatives ! He would notice one other objection that had been raised, and then Conclude. It was said, if the President supposed thrfe papers necessary, he would have sent them j and that we might offend him by this request. Mr. Livingfton said, this was not the firft time that neafures were endeavored to be carried, by appealing to the charafler of the Pre sident. He sincerely admired and refpefted the chara&er of that great man 4 he was jealous of his reputation, and, ai an American, wai interested in his glory.no consideration (hould ever tempt him to one leaf of his well earned laurels; bat, while he hacithe honor of a feat in that house, he would refill every attempt to cover improper mea sures by the splendor of any man's reputation. He had before remarked the lingular tendency of argument in thisqueftion towards the mystery of theology ; it was not only predestination and free a gency, we are now told that we mutt full faith in the President, and that he and the Senate can do no wrong. What, Sir, (said Mr. Livingfton) as, faith, banished by modern infidelity from re ligion, taken refuge in politics ? has the dodlrineof human infallibility been transferred from the ritual into our conftitutioD ? Mr. Livingfton concluded begging the pardon of the committee for the unavoidable length of hii inveltigation ; be felt how utterly incapable he bad en to the talk, but he was consoled byrefkftinjr hL J r UCn " and ability by w '» cl) the «*®*ion Had been fupportcd hy #t h«r». Saturday, May 7. - — Meffis. Parker, Findley, Crabb, f„ and Claiborne presented petitions, in favour of t K e Biitifh treaty. Mr. Murray presented an addref« Grand Juty of Kent county, Delawaie, to thefai effe£t. .P' • Mr. Clopton presented refolutionj refp?, > , the treaty, wiihing the house of 'Rtprtieiitus^c, st«5t« use their own discretion in the bufmefs. 1 ' The Speaker prefeßted refoltr-'ions and a prt'ticij from Huntingdon county, in favour of the treaty Some debate took place upon the'propriry o f lr ' celving the resolutions, on account of their brim"- said to contain a censure on the proceedings of t'j r » house : they were read, the fenfa of the house vv; S taken, and they were reje&ed. The petition with those presented above, were laid upon the table. The bill for the relief of-Sylvanus Bourne, was read a third time and pafTed. A bill to regulate compensation to clerks, and a bill to regtilate quarantine, were twice read and referred to a committee of the whole. Mr. S. Smith laid a resolution upon the tabic putting all nations upon the fame footing, with reipect to the felling of veflels and goods within the pom of the United States, by recommending it to be ena&ed that no natisn (hall be allowed in future to fell their prizes within the United States. A meflage was received from the Senate with the bHI authoring the sale of I.iik's north wejV 0 f the river Ohio, with several amendments tfcireto. The amendments were read and referred to a feTeft committee. Mr. VV. Smith, from the committee of" ways and means, reported two refoluiions", which were refer red to a committee of the whole. The house resolved itfelf into a committee of the whole, Mr. W. Smith in the chair, upon the bill for laying certain duties on carriages, and for re. pealing a former a<£t for tfce fame piupofe, which being gone through, the house took it up, and it was ordered to be engrofled for a third reading. Mr. Sitgreaves, from the committee to whntm was referred the memorial of certain creditors of the French Republic, residing is Plwladelphia, re ported that they found the extent of the c'aims of the memorialing fufficient, to entitle them to the interference of Congress ; but. as the fcfiion drawing to a close, the feleft committee wilhrd to be discharged from further contideration of the me morial, and that it might be referred to the secreta ry of state, to report thereon, at the next fetEon of Congress. The report was twice read anil agretx' u>. The house resolved it felt into a committee offTc whole, Mr. Wm. Smith in the chair, 6n"tfieW a i,. thoriiing Ebenezer Zsnefoldqire 'Certain north weft of the riv«r Ohio. After fonie deb'ate thereon, in order to give lhr.e for uiakirtg foir.e en quiries on the fubjefl, the committee rose, and had leave to fit again. Mr. Tracy, from the committee of claims, made a report, which being gone through and agteed to, the house adjourned. The readers of the account ef ycfterJay's pro ceedings on the Teneflee business, will notice tlftt by the ordinance of Congress of July 1787, th« south *eftern territory was to be laid oat ints Hates, and each Jlate, containing 60,000 free inhabitants, was entitled to admiQion into the Unien j the num bers returned by the census taken by the authority of the temporary government were 66,649 ree ,n * habitants and 10,613 aves > n '^ e territory foutli •f the Ohio. The Pretident of the United State* did not give au opinion in his communication, that the Sate of Teneflee ftiould be admitted into the Union, as Bated in Friday's rtiinutts, but referred to the ordinance above mentioned, and the act of celHon for the rights of the territory. J D t I Friday, 6th inft, Mr. Gloimprefeuied t ipeti. tions from the County of. Albany*. gE; This Day publijhed, AND for sale by B. DAVIES, N»- 68, High H. & P. IVCE, No. 50, to. and J.ORMROP, No 41, Chefnut street, ur rL-A'sic Mr. Burke's letter to the Duke oi Bedford M»r •»