«
CONGRESS.
PHILADELPHIA
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
TUESDAY November. 15, 179r.
IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE.
Debate on the Ratio of Representation.
(continued.)
MR. HILLHOUSE said lie had ever been a
friend to a republican form of government,
and God forbid, added he, that 1 should ever
give my vote for any measure that should endan
ger the liberties of my country. He said he was
in favor of an energetic government, as that a
lone can secure the blessings ofliberty—As to the
dread of corruption in this House, which some
gentlemen appeared to entertain, he thought
there was 110 foundation for such an apprehenfi
-011 ; at least, said he, as the idea refers to one
or two hundred representatives—two hundred
he contended were as easily corrupted as one—
But the corruption coniemplated was a meer mat
ter of opinion ; no farts, he presumed, existed
in this country to juftify a positive assertion, and
as to foreign countries, it seems to be conceded
that a larger number than any that has been
mentioned is susceptible of undue influence.—
He then adverted to the reftricftions on the Pre
sident of the United States, and the Senate, in
refpecfl to the means of corrupting the legifla
ture—l he Constitution has also made provision
to secure the independence of the members, &c.
He then urged some difficulties which would be
occauoned by a small ratio. —He observed that
the population of some of the states was nearly
stationary—it a small ratio is now established, the
consequence will be when it is augmented, that
the representation of those states muff be dimi
nilhed—this he conceived, would be a measure
that would be greatly disliked. With respect to
the proposed amendment, he thought it was en
tirely out of the question, till it was ratified by
three fourths of the states. A very numerous
representation, he further observed, would tend
to weaken if not destroy the state governments,
and that in the ifl'ue would destroy the general
government—For, said he, they mutually depend
on each other for support.
Mr. Sedgwick rose for enquiry, whether if the
word thirty should be struck out, it can be restor
ed ? For though he wished for an encreafe of
the ratio, yet he thought it ought to stop short
of 40,000. He was in favor of making the pro
posed amendment to the Constitution, the rule
to guide the House. He said he had no idea that
the liberties of this country depended on the dif
ference in the representation between 100 and
113 members. With more than 1800 watchmen,
in the state legislatures, he conceived that the li
berties of this country were perfeiflly fafe—and
he never could believe that the people of the
United States would ever be slaves ; he was sure
they never would so long as they were jult to
themselves and deserve to be free.
Mr. Heiiter was in favor of retaining the ratio
of one to 30,000 —He Hated sundry particulars
refpedtiug the very distant local (ltuations of the
representatives of the United States, which ren
dered it almost impofiible for theprefent number
to do compleat justice to their lefpective diftricfts.
Mr. Kitchell was in favor of a numerous re
presentation—He thought the amendment pro
pored to the Constitution ought to be the guide
to the House on this occasion. He did not draw
his ideas of what fho.ild constitute a proper re
presentation, from the examples cited from fo
reign conntiies—nor was he actuated by an ap
prehension of corruption, as more applicable to
a final] number than to a large one ; but when
he considered the various objects, views, denomi
nations, profeffions, callings and interests of the
citizens ofthe United States, he was fully con
vinced that a large reprefentacion was necessary
to embrace the wifbes and answer the expectati
ons of the people.- He fliould therefore vote a
gainlt the motion for (hiking out 30,000.
Mr Findley rofc to explain certain expressions
flitch he said had been mifnnderftood- he de
fended the opinion he had before advanced, re
fpeaing a large reprelentation. In reply to Mr.
Clarke he observed, that the information to
which he alluded when he said that a larger num
ber would enable the representatives to adapt
the laws and proceedings of government, to the
circumstances of the country, was that species of
knowledge wh.ch arises from a more perfect re
the people 0 " ° leWantS ' Wi<heS ' a " d imerefts of
Mr. Gerry closed the debate this day—He took
a general survey of the arguments against tfce
proposed ratio of one to 30,000 In noticing the
objection from the instability of the Itate legis
latures, he fair! it was not owing to their num
bers, but to the mode in which they are eledled
—were the Senates and executives of the several
(fates cholen asthofe of the general government,
there would have been as much liability and con
filtency in their tranfacftions, as in thole of the
government ofthe Union. A gentleman had said
that the proposed amendments to the Constituti
on, had been adopted with relutftance by some
of the states which had accepted them—He call
ed 011 the gentleman to produce his authorities
for this adertion.—A relative proportion between
the members of the Honfe and the Senate had
been suggested ; this idea, he said, had no foun
dation in the Constitution—and he further ob
served, that the Conftitulion has so compleatly
guarded and secured the rights and indepen
dence ofthe Senate, that he could not conceive
of the apprehensions of gentlemen, who appear
tj think that an encreafe of the members of this
House will overwhelm that branch of the legif
lature—ln all events the privileges of that bod}'
will remain the fame. The States it is said have
reduced their representative aHemblies— This,he
said, so far from being an argument againfl. the
proposed ratio, was directly 111 favor of it—The
diminution of the Itate legislatures has been oc
casioned by the idea which the people entertain
of the encreafing importance ofthe general go
vernment—The objetfls of legislation to both go
vernments are nearly similar ; they relate to
those important concerns which interefl: the feel
ings of every citizen of the United States—all
the difference lies in the magnitude of their re
fpecftive spheres of action—hence it miift evident
ly be the wifii and expectation ofthe people, that
their interelts in every point of view, fliould be
fully and adequately represented in this House.
The gentleman from North-Carolina, has said,
that extending the fphereof Representation will
lead to a choice of more competent characters ;
but he observed, that the larger the sphere, the
less knowledge of the merits of candidates—and
the electors will be obliged to rote on trust.
The mode of election in Great-Britain, and
not the number of the members of the House of
Commons is the source of that corruption which
has been so frequently alluded to ; the mode of
election in that country admits of an executive
influence in the election of a majority of the
members ; this is the rotten part of their con
llitution which requires amputation.
He did not apprehend any danger from undue
attempts to influence or corrupt the members of
the house—but though he admitted that the go
vernment may be untainted at the present time
—yet he conceived it the belt policy to prevent
the evil, rather than to wait for a corrupt adini
nittration and then to seek for a remedy.
The idea which had been suggested, that en
creafing the federal representation, would tend
to diminifli the importance of the State govern
ments in the estimation of the people, he con
ccivccl had no foundation ; it supposed a want
of wisdom in the community at large, which
supposition had nothing to support it. The peo
ple know that their happiness depends on pre
(erving the balance between the State govern
ments and that of the Union.
The government of the union lias been justly
compared to a pyramid ; he wiflied that the
base which was confHtuted by the representative
body might be broad in order to give it (lability
—and therefore hoped that the original motion
or one representative to every thirty thouland
persons would be adopred.
FRIDAY, November 2J.
Resolutions of the House rcfpelting the conteflid eltc-
tion of Anthony Waynt, member from Georgia.
RESOLVED, That the firft Monday of Febru
ary next be assigned for the trial of the article'
alledged in the petition againfl the said return.
Resolved, That the evidence which may be of
fered on the part of the petitioner, fliall be con
fined to the proof of the articles of charge exhi
bited in the said petition, against the validity of
the return of the said election.
Retblved, That on the trial, the deposition of
a vvinicfs ihall be received, which (hall have been
taken more than 25 days prior to the day allign
ed for the trial, before any jultice or judge of the
courts of the United States, or before any chan
cellor, justice or judge of a supreme or superior
court, mayor or chief magistrate of a city, or
judge of a county court of common pleas of any of
United States, not being of counsel or attor
ney to either the said Anthony Wayne or the pe
titioner : provided, that a notification from the
magistrate before whom the deposition is to be
taken to rhe ad verse party to beppresetn t at the tak
ing of the fame, and to pot interrogatories if he
think fit, fh.ll have bee.l firfl and fa v
ed on the adverse party, or his attorney fpeci
neJrefl '•f' 1 - e h pU^ofe ' as either maybe
nearefl, if either is wuhin one hundred miles of
the place „f su ch captlon> a n owin ; mefor h j
attendance, after nonfied, not less than at the
rate of one clay, Sundays exclusive, for every
246
twenty miles travel. And every nerfon rW r
I 1 all be carefully examined and cautioned 5
vorn or affirmed to teftify the whole truth *"1
shall subscribe the testimony by him or t.
given, after the fame (hall be reduced to writiS"
which /hall be done only by the magistrate r^ 1 *
,hc<i r fi,i„„ , r bv, l ,/d/ ponenM | ,
And the depositions so taken, together with,re/
tificate of the notice, if any, given ,o theadverfc
party, or 11S aUorn ey, shall be sealed up by th !
laid magiitrate and directed to the Speaker
Provided nevertheless, That no « de
tion shall be used on the trial of the laid peliS'
which shall have been taken at any timL before
the 26th day of December next. Provided all"
That evidence, taken in any other manner than
is herein before direded, and not objected to bv
the parties, may, with the approbation of the
house, be produced on the trial.
MONDAY, November 28.
The bill for the relief of David Cook was read
a second time, and referred to a committee of the
whole house to-morrow.
Mr. Sedgwick presented the petition of Samuel
Negus, which was read and referred to the Se
cretary at War.
Sundry petitions, praying for the settlement
of accounts, and the renewal of loft ordeftroyed
certificates—were read and referred to the Se
cretary of the Treasury.
Mr. Thatcher presented the petition of Samuel
Procftor, which was read and referred to the Se
cretary at War.
The memorial of James Simpfon, a surveyor
under the late geographer general of the United
States, was presented—read and referred to the
Secretary of the Treasury.
Mr. Muhlenberg presented the petition of Ni.
cholas Schultz, which was read and referred to
the Secretary at War.
Mr. Clarke presented the petition of Joel
Phelps, praying the benefit of a pension in con
sequence of difabilicy incurred while in the ser
vice of the United States. The report of the Se
cretary at War on the petition of said Phelps re
ferred to him at the last session, was called for,
which being read, the following refolntion was
moved, and agreed to by the house—That the
reports of the Secretary at War on the petitions
of Joel Phelps and others, whose claims appear
to be precluded by the resolve of Congrefsof nil,
of March, 1773, and have not yet been adled
upon, be referred to a committee of the whole
honfe on the state of the Union, and that the re
ference be the order of the day for Monday next.
Mr. Ames presented the petition of Samuel
Breck, and others, proprietors of the Sail-Cloth
Manufactory in Bolion, praying that they may
have the exclusive privilege of affixing certaiii
marks to their Sail-Cloth, and that meafnres be
adopted for preventing the said marks from be
ing used by others—read and referred to the Se
cretary of State.
Agreeably to the order of the day, the house
resolved itfelf into acommittee of the whole, Mr.
Muhlenberg in the chair, to take into coiifidera
tion the bill making compensation to widows,
orphans and invalids, in certain cases.
rhe committee reported progress, and are to
fit again to-morrow. Adjourned.
TUESDAY, November 29.
Sundry petitions praying compensations, pen
sions, &c. were read, and referred to the Secre
tary of war.
Mr. Livermore reported a biil to eftabiifh the
pofl-office, and pa ft-roads in the United States—
read the firft and second times, and referred to
the committee of the whole House on Monday
next —Ordered that the bill be printed in thein-
erim
Mr. Dayton presented the petition of sundry
persons, refugees from Canada during the late
war—read, and referred to a felecl committee,
consisting of Meffis. Dayton, Bourne, (R. 1.) and
Murray.
A meflage was received from the Senate, by
Mr. Secretary Otis, informing the House that
they have palfed a bill refpeCling Consuls and
Vice-Confuls.
The House went into acommittee ofthe whole
on the bill making coinpenfation to widows, or
phans, and invalids in certain cafes—rhedifcuffi
on of the bill wasfinifhed—the committee agreed
to sundry amendments—they then rose and re
ported.—And the House adjourned.
PORTLAND, (Mafl.) Nov. 10
Tuesday ]ast arrived here the snow Eliza, Capt>
Jackson, belonging to Portfniouth (N.H.) in 30
days from Cape-Francois, in Hifpaniola.—Capt.
Jackson has brought back the cargo he carried
out from Portsmouth, which was lumber.
By Capt. Jackson we learn, thar the white in
habitants are in a molt deplorablefituation. The
whites do not consist of more than 3000 strong,
exclufiveof Americans and others detained there
by the embargo. The negroes consist of more
than 30.000, and it was daily expected that they
would auack the town.