funds In contemplation are in his report. If then we find the ar
ticles he values will not produce the revenue, is it not better to let
the measure reft until we fee the means toaccomplith it. Ought
■we not to be fatisfied of the provision ? Gentlemen have argued
that we should fund firft, and look, for the means afterwards.
"What, he would ask, would be said of the man who, in private
life, would run thirty or forty thousand pounds in debt, and after
that seek the means of paying It ? Would this fatisfy his creditors ?
Yet this was similar to the present cafe. Sir, let us calculate this
business not from theory, but experience. Let us know the a
mount and the means, and then if I conceive it for the general
interest it ftiall have my fanttion.
The gentleman has enumerated the state collectors, which will
be rcquifite if the states continue the powers of taxation. I would
aik him if CongreCs will not require double that number, two to
one, if they take the power, and an army at their back, if the tax
should be difagrceable. This tax mull be rendered pleafmg to
the people, and notwithstanding the fiat of this house, if the peo
ple fay it will not be so, we lhall find our fiat of little benefit. In
fomc ot the iUtes it will be disagreeable, at any rate, and theyiwill
not fufferthe money to be again taken trom their pockets where
they have already contributed ; Bcfides, let us consider the time
and expence a continental arrangement will make necessary :"take
it in any sense aud it will be found improper.
A gentleman has interpreted the amendment from North-Ca-
Tolina to be, that Congress fliall not compel her to pay twenty
shillings in the pound. This he thought uncharitable, and that
the gentleman (honld have looked to our own body firft—to Con
gress. He would ask it Congress had paid her 20s[in the pound ?
It her soldiers, and other cieditors, had been so honorably dealt
■with ? He was sorry it would not be found the cafe, and North-
Carolina ought therefore to be let alone on this head. For his
part he conttrued the amendment at diametrically opposed to the
. aflumption, and he would leave it to the committee it it was po
licy to adopt the measure even on this single consideration. A
bare majority,if the measure was carried,was all to be expelled,and
hewoulaalk if this bare majority was to fatisfy that state, or it her
citizens would be fatisfied with it. Suppose it carried by this
majority, and they would not submit, v/as it intended to reduce
them to obedience by force ? Was this a language for freemen ?
He supposed not, reconcile them to the measure, bring forward
your funds, shew them they are not to be oppreiled, and you
•will accomplifti the business much eaficr.
With refpeft to a fcttlement, it was the interest of the state he
came from to procure one ; but he despaired of it. He would
\enture to predict, if the assumption took place, a settlement
would never be procured : nay, the Secretary himfelf had not con
templated it in hisieport as an event which would certainly take
place : for he fays, after finding out the mode eventually to be a
dopted, that the second or final tuccefs must depend upon the
firft ; but suppose this settlement, have the arguments of the gen
tlemen anfwercd the objections to the justice of the measure in
taxing the citizens (ot the states which have funk those debts)
twice over? For suppose them continental or state debts, still the
injustice remains : if the former, the citizens have funk their pro
portion of the continental debts, and therefore ought not to be
taxed again : if considered as state debts, as they have been taxed
for their own state debts, they ought not to be taxed for the debts
of other states.
The gentleman last up (Mr. Hartley) has mentioned the quota*
of the different states, and that they should be regarded ; this he
believed would not be the cafe if the assumption took place. The
rule of apportionment, for instance, for Georgia, was at the rate
of one ninetieth of the whole debts; fhc would pay the alfumption
agreeable to the rates of reprcfentation, which would be three
parts of fixty-five of the whole debts. He thought it could not
be injurious to poflpone the assumption at the present day, and
hoped it would not at any rate take place the present session.
Mr. Moore. I rife to answer my colleague (Mr. Bland) He
has mentioned, as one of the reasons which has determined nim
to vote in favor of the assumption, that the reprefentatiou of Vir
ginia in their state legislature is unequal; frprri which circumflance '
he appear* to think it is not prudent to trust them witli making
provilion for the payment of their state debli. He fays the weight
of property is in the eaflern part of the state ; the weight of legis
lative influence is from the weflern. He ycfterday mentioned
an instance in which the weight and inlluenceof the weflein part
of the state had occasioned a great deal of clamour and uneafinefj.
The cafe he mentioned, is the a£l passed in that state authoi ifing
British creditors to sue for and recover the debts contracted pre
vious to the war. Has the ground of complaint been, that the
state has refufed to pay a debt which was contra&ed by indivi
duals ? Or was it because they have complied with the treaty ?
]f cither of those are grievances, they arc such as will not be re
dressed by this house. A compliance with the treaty was fre
quently recommended by Congress before the law passed ; the
present Congress haveconcurrcd in the measure; I believe it inc; is
•with the approbation of every member withinthefc walls; I think
it mult meet with the approbation of every disinterested mind
throughout the continent. Sir, I cannot conhder it as agi ievance.
If the°obfervation of my colleague has any weight, it goes to prove
that the state cannot be fafcly trusted withtjie power of legislation
in iiny cafe, and that the whole power ought to be veiled in
Congress.
Mv colleague has said, that the greater part of the certificates
ire in the hands of citizens in the e.iftern part of the State ; that
heir militia have been oftericr called into iirvice ; they have fur
lilhed provisions in a greater proportion than the wellern : and
re is afraid that the weight and influence of the western part of
he State will prevent their being equitably redeemed. Sir, I be
ieve supplies to the arm) have been turnilhcd by the wellern part
>fthe state, in proportion to their property,; I believe my col
eaeue will not lay that any militU in the Stye have more cheer
ullv served their country ; 1 think they have not been wanting
n patriotism, in zeal or exertions. But I *ill refer him to an
■ft of the legislature of Virginia, that will (how the injufticc of
.dopting the measure ma more forc'blc point of view
The legislature of Virginia patted a law I think, tour or five
rears ago, hying a duty on imports to be paid in certificates.
The importer had the alternative of paying one-fourth or i- s th
»f the sum in fpccie. Every citizen in the state, I believe, conli
dered this as the only mode by which they were ever to be paid ;
rhey never contemplated any other provision for the purposes.
Under the influence of a law of the slate they have fold hem to
the merchants for one fifth of the nominalfum. They will be cal
led on by the propofuion now before us, to pay the entire sum
with interest : This I consider as an injuft.ee to the citizens of e
verypart of the state. 1 hope he will not be ditpofed to encoun
ter those inconveniences from any ill founded apprehensions of the
"'Anofher 1l r U e7fot > h?haTd t ifphyed is that number, of the citi
zens have emigrated from Virginia to Kentucky, N Carolina and
Oeorgia. It would be unjust that the remaining citizen, should
™y the debt, so far as refpeft Kentucky. This reason will equal.
Fy apply to Pennsylvania, North-Carolina, and other states. No
rtore tliin one-third of the citizens of Kentucky are from Virgin,-
Rut fir it is well known that more havecome into than have
removed from Virginia : When the feat of government was un
d™difeuffion,iitw D a S often mentioned that their members were
ronfidcrablv incrrafed : 1 then thought my colleague concurred
i»7he opinion and co. fidered it as ap undeniable truth. Sir, I
need onW refer him to the returns of the militia ; to prove that
The numbers have increased ; and from their tnctealc in number
rhev will pay the debt with more ease.
Mr Chairman, gentlemen think u improper to point out par
ticular inftanccs in which the operation o the proportion will be
„lu ous ; I con lets I am obliged ... o.der to make up my mind
o consider itsconfequences; how fa, states how far individuals
v>U be injured. Gentlemen 1 tlul>k it oi» # ht tf be ounfidcrcd :a
a aitional point of view.
He has said he is not fur prized that the members from the weft
em part Of the date (hould be opposed to the aifumption ot the
ftatc debts. The conclusion intended, I suppose, is, that they are
influenced by the interest of the particular part of the itate. . ir,
if he had considered the situation of that country, he would <'3ll
ly have seen (especially Kentucky) that to aiTume the debts would
be in favor of them. No part of the duties proposed by th. be
cretary will be paid by the citizen*. They will rtel no part ot the
burthen ; N butif they are not aJTumed, they mult pay their propor
tion by a tax.
I suppose they mean that some great, some important national
advantage is 10 be acquired by it ; that it ought to be contempla
ted in this view. In my opinion no expedient will be lo ctfettu
al, towards giving the government permanency as a it net adhe
rence to justice ; nothing will tend so much to secure national ad
vantage or importance. A worthy member from South-Carolina
has enumerated the services rendered by the citizens of that Hate ;
I know, fir, they have rendered important services ; 1 know they
were opprefTed during the war : But they were not the only men
who participated in thofc difficulties. The militia ot North-Ca
rolina and Virginia were also engaged. Two of the inftarices he
mentions proves to my mind, fully the injustice of our alTuming
the state debts : The battle of Kings-mountain and the Cowpens.
The militia of Virginia and North-Carolina were engaged
in both those. Indeed, if lam not altogether wrong informed,
and I think I am not, my information is such as I can rely on, that
of King's Mountain was wholly fought by the militia ot Virginia
and North-Carolina ; at the Cowpens the fame militia composed
the greater part of the troops. The gentleman fays they have en
ver been paid. How were the militia of Virginia paid ? Sir, I re
member drawing the pay, the °.n-pencc per day, for some of j
thofc militia, in Rate paper money* when depreciated 4, 5, or 600 ,
for one. Is it just that the militia from Virginia who have been
thus paid (and I believe they have been generally paid in this
manner) should now be called on to pay (those of South-Carolina
who have not been paid the principal, but have received the inter
est) the full amouut of their claims in fpccie ? I think it would be
glaringly unjust. Sir, although I have confined my obfervatiom
to a companion of those two flat s, I think a similar injustice will
take place in some degree through irll the Hates.
Had this aifumption taken place immediately after the war, it
would have been move just. I believe some of the states, by their
extraordinary exertions, have incurred a debt exceeding their just
proportion ; but there has been as great an inequality in the exer
tions of states to pay those debts. Sir, I have seen a law of South-
Carolina, directing the cmiflion of two 01 three hundred thousand
pounds in paper money, to be loaned to such ot thofc of her citi
zens as would mortgage lands tor the repayment of the principal,
and fix per cent, interest : On their having firft iubmitted their ti
tle papers to examination, and their lands t a fair valuation, they
were entitled to one third of its value in the new emitted money on
mortgage. If lam not' mistaken in this law, oi its operation, and
I think I am not, although I mention it from a very imperii & re
recollettion, the taxes colle£led in that state have not been applied
to the payment of the debts contract d during the war, but have
been diverted into a different channel; they have been applied
to the discharge of this ucw crcated debt; and in the *ear 1791,
the state will receive into hertreafury thefum loaned to her citi
zens, with fix per cent, interest. Sir, my colleague, some time a
go, moved that the certificates which were redeemed, and in the
the pofteflion of the states, {hould be funded in the fame manner
as those in the poifeflion of individuals :—this was rejetted. I
suppose it is not in contemplation with gentlemen to piohibit
states from becoming purchasers hereafter, and funding agreeable
to the proposition now before us. What will be the comparative
f)tuation of the state ot South-Carolina and Virginia ? The one ha
ving paid a confidenble share other debt, is to have no credit.
The other having paid no part, or very little, is to be aided by
the other states in making the payment, whilst (he lodges in her
treasury the amount of five years taxes. This ha* not the appear
ance of jnftice. Sir, I think the present question may be reduced
to this—Shall we suspend or the justice due to two states,
for there are only two who compLin ? Or ihall we do an imme
diate a£t of injustice to others ? Sir, gentlemen appear to be fully
agreed to pay whatever balances mav appear due 011 a final fettle
inent of accounts. Is it not better to delay justice to some states,
when they have every afTurance of redress ? Sir, when I consider
the question in this view, I find no room for hefuating in my
mind. lam Clear for rejttting the proposition.
Mr. Wadsworth. I confefsSir,l almoftbegin todefpairof the
aflumptionof the State debts, and with that I lhall despair of the
national government. As it is thelalhion to hold up to view the
interest of particular States. I shall according to cuftom,offer some
observations refpe&ing the State of Connc&icut. At the beginning
of the war we were out of debt,and our funds were n such a fix
ation, as enabled us to advance 50,000 dollars for the exigencie
of the war ; the paper money ret civcd by that Slate, for this sum
from Congress, did not nctt half that amount. At the c!ofe of
the war, Connedicut owed nearly 4,000,000 of dollars ; Hie has
funk, about half that amount by excile and direct taxes, principal,
ly by the latter ; Hie has no debt but what was incurred by the
war, (except *about 8000 dollars) and what remans to be paid
was for National and State defence. To the officers and soldiers
| of the Continental army, (he lias paid and owes more than two
million of dollars, a sum considerably greater than her present
! debt. When :he Quaiter Master an l CommiiTary General owed
in Connc&icut 640 thonfaud dollars, and had neither money or
credit, the State aiTumed that sum, which is part of the present
debt ; in most other States, these debts were cancelled 'bv a final
settlement of a Continental Commiflioner, and are no othei ways
diftinguiftied from State debts : the State of Connecticut has
long lince had itsaccounts against the union examined, by aCom
miflioner, who rejected every doubtful charge, and yet there re
mains nearly 8,000,000 of dollars ballance,after deducing every
fhilliug the Continent had advanced the State. I confiderthe debt
of the State of Connecticut now due, as a real Continental debt,
of the most meritorious class, nor can I easily pcrfuade royfeif, to
provide funds for the other Continental debts, and leave the citi
zens of ConneCticut to groan under a direCt tax (their only re
fouree) to pay a debt which they do not owe, but as sureties for
the Continent ; we have been fometimestold, when the interest of
a particular State was in question, that if we did not comply with
her wifties, she would throw hetKf into the arms of some foreign
power, I will not fay this of Connecticut, there is no power but
the United States with whom we wilh for connection; no foreign
power is our neighbor ; we are firmly attached to the union, but
a direCt heavy tax for the debts of the union, will be felt as un
just and oppreftive, and may rouse the hardy spirits of the North
ern and Eaftearn freemen to a incompatible with the
peace, fafety and happiness of the general government.
An argument has been drawn against the assumption from pe
titions 'on your table (mr. Chairman); the petition of the To
bacconists has been mentioned in particular : if we are to admit
petitions as arguments against a mcafure, we may as well give up
all idea of laying any tax whatever ; for I believe it will be grant
ed that no tax can be proposed, which may not be petitioned
against.
I beg leave to remind gentlemen, of a petition prefaced the last
feflion from a body of men, who, confidcred in relation to the
community at large,are of ten time* the consequence that the finall
body of Tobacconists are however refpeGahle in themselves, 1
refer to the petition from the Distillers and Importers of molas
ses, their petition was not noticed ; the tax was laid, and is now
coile&ed, the petitioners fee their error and are fatisfied.
The duty on Salt has been mentioned, the duty laid last feflion,
was ohjeftcd to, but Salt was never so low in price, and ifjthe prol
posed duty is laid, it will then be cheaper than it has been on an
average, for seven years past, to my knowledge. Gentlemen have
uoiiteudcd that the menfure is (• importent, that its adoption
-446-
ought to be by the voice of a large majority, a bare majority will
not iatisfy our constituents ; however desirable this may bej pub
lic -bodies arc often most divided upon the most inter eft ing fub
je&s, and if this idea is to prevail, there is an end of the great
principle of a republican government, that the majority is to
govern. On this principle, it a majority should decide against
the aflumption, I should think it my duty patiently to submit to
the determination. We hear much upon the fubjeft of general
duties, that they fall heavieit upbn the Southern Slates ; they uq
not manufadureis, and a great consumption ot luxuries takes
place among the people in those states. Mr. Wadfworth asserted
that the coniumption of luxuries is much greater in the Eastern
and Northern states ; and stated a variety of particulars to prove tiie
alTertion ; he appealed to theSourthcrngentlemen,w ho had trave
led into the middle and Northern states foi its truth.
The report of the Secretary of the Treasury has been faulted ou
account of its calculations; and the article relpi 6ting the Polfc
Office has been mentioned—Mr. Wadfworth read that part
of the report, and observed—Here we have the opiuion of the
Poft-Maiter, and not a calculation of the Secretary. If there a
an error it is only in opinion —and the Secretary is not accounta
ble for it,—The opinion however appears to me to over rate the
proceeds of the depaitrnent upon the present plan—l do not
however conceive that the eftnuate over rates what may be de
rived from this fouice —seven eights of what may be piotjuctd
from the Poft-Oftice is loft by letters being lent by private con
veyance and under franks—under proper regulations I have ne>
doubt but a larger sum than that mentioned by the Pofl-Maftei-
General may be realized. —Mr. Wadfworth concluded by faym?
that in every view of the fubjett the justice and policy of the mtv
fure, 111 making a continental jnovihon for thefc debis is so ap
parent that he could not but hope the affirmative or the
would be adopted.
WEDNESDAY, MAY 5.
The house receded from their amendments to
the bill for the government South of the Ohio
which had been disagreed to by the Senate—they
also agreed to the amendments proposed by the
Senate to the bill for the mitigation or remilfiou
of forfeitures and penalties accruing in certain
cases under the revenue laws.
A meflage was received from the Senate in
forming the house that they have palled a bill
prescribing the mode of authenticating the acts,
records and proceedings of the several States.
The committee appointed for that purpose,
reported a bill for the colle&ionof the addition
al duties 011 Wine, Rum, &c. as proposed by the
late resolutions of the house. The said bill was
rend a firlfc time and laid on the table.
The bill from the Senate, for extending the
judiciary laws of the United States to the State
of North Carolina, was read a second time.
The house resolved itfelf into a committee and
made further progress in the bill for adjusting
and fettling the claims of the Baron Steuben.
On motion of Mr. Smith (S. C.) The Secreta
ry of the Treasury was directed to report the
amount of tonnage duty collected in each of the
States between the firft day of September and
the firft day of January last ; diftinguiihing the
foreign front the domellic tonnage.
THURSDAY, MAY 6.
A very long memorial of Nathaniel T»ini«j.-
was read—praying further com penfation for the
trailfportation of the mail in 1 787.
Mr. Stone of the committee appointed for the
purpose, reported a bill for funding the public
debt of the United States—which bill was read a
firft and second time, and made the order of the
day onWednefday next.—loo copies were order
ed to be printed.
In committee of the whole on the bill for ad
justing and fatisfying the claims of William
Frederick de Steuben.
The clause which proposes an annuity of 2706
dollars during life was further di feu sled—sun
dry amendments werepropofed to the bill—some
of which were withdrawn, and others negatived,
it was at length agreed to in Committee without
alteration. This bill wasoppofed in its progress
by Mr. Williamfon, Mr. Bloodworth, Mr. Steele,
Mr. White, Mr. Boudinot, Mr. Seney, Mr. Sin
nickfon and Mr. Stone—and supported by Mr.
Smith [S. C.] Mr. Lawrence, Mr. Vining, Mr.
Huntington, Mr. Wadfwortli, and Mr. Clymer.
Adjourned.
FRIDAY, MAY 7.
In Committee of the whole on the bill for a
dapting the Judiciary laws of the United States,
to the State of North-Carolina, some amendments
were agreed to, and several clauses added to t'ie
bill ; the Committee then rose and reported the
fame ; the House acceded to these amendments.
Mr. Bland after stating to the House, that in
consequence of obtaining (as is supposed) a sur
reptitious copy from a public office, of the names
ot olficers andfoldiers in the Virginia and North-
Carolina lines, of the late army, to whom arrears
o: pay were ordered to be made by a law passed the
last felfion of Congress, some persons had frau
dulently procured aflignments of pay, for a con
sideration much below their value. He therefore
moved a resolution to prevent the frauds' taking
place ; in the following words viz. Resolved,
that the Secretary at war, be, and he is hereby
directed to cause accurate lifts to be forthwith
publifliea in the News Papers ofthe States of Vir
ginia and North Carolina, of all the officers and
loldiers, who are intitled to receive certain ar
rears °f pay, due to the lines of the army of the
said States, for which money was granted and
appropriated by Congress, at their last session ;
an<i that the payment be made to the said officers
and soldiers, or where dead, to their legal repre
sentatives, under the fame regulations as have
been adopted for the payment of Invalid pensio
ners, in purfuauce of an A<ftpafled at the last fef
I '"*. yr