lions others may have sgainft the public,t.:icfe csnnot afFe&thc va
lidity of theirs ; that it ihey gain by the riik taken upon them
selves, ii is but thejuft reward of the rifle ; that as they hold the
public promise, they have an [undeniable demand on the public
faith : that the best foundation of public credit is that adlitrence
to literal engagements on which it has been e retted by the mo ft
flourifhing nations : that if the new government ftiould swerve
from so eflential a principle, it will be regarded by all the world
as inheriting the infirmities ot the old. —Such being the interfe
ring claims on the public, one of three things must be done ; ei
ther pay both, rejeCt wholly one or other, or make a compp/ition
between them on some principle of equity ; To pay both is per
haps beyond the public faculties; and as it would far exceed the
value received by the public, will not be expe&ed by the world,
rtor even by the creditors themselves. To reject wholly the claims
of either is equally inadmiflible. Such a fa< rifice ot tnofe who
possess the written engagements, would be fatal to the proposed
establishment of public credit. It would moreover punish thole
who had put their trust in the public promises and resources.
To make the other class the sole vittims, was an idea at which hu
man nature recoiled.
A composition is the only expedient that remains ; let it be
liberal one in favor of the present holders; let them have the high
price which has prevailed in the market; and let the residue
belong to the original fufferers. This will not do perfedl justice ;
but it will do more real justice, and perform more of the public
faith, than any other expedient proposed. The present holders,
"where they have purchased at the lowest prise of the securities,
•will have a profit that cannot reasonably be complained of ; where
they have purchased at a higher price,the profit will be considera
ble ; and even the few who have purchased at the highest price,
cannot well belofersw'th a well funded interest of fix percent.
The original fufferers will not be fully indemnified ; but they will
receive from their country a tribute due to their merits, if
it does not intirely heal their wounds, will afiuage the pain of
them. He was aware, that many plausible objections would lie
against what he fuggeftcd ; some, which he forefaw, he would
takefome notice of. It would be laid, that the plan was imprac
ticable : should this be demonstrated he was ready to renounce it;
but it did not appear to him in that light. He acknowledged
that such a scale as had often been a fubjett of convcrfation, was
impracticable—
The discrimination proposed by him, required nothing more
than a knowledge of the present holders, which would be shewn
by the certificates ; and of theoriginal holder?, which the office
documents would shew. It may be objected, that if the govern
ment is to go beyond the literal into the equitable claims against
the United States, it ought to go back to every cafe where injuflice
had been done. To this the answer was obvious : The cafe in
<Jueflion is not only different from others in point of magnitude
and of practicability, but forces itfelf on the attention of the com
mittee a? necefTarily involved in the business before them. It may
be objected, that public credit will fuffer, especially abroad: He
thought this danger would be effe&ually obviated by the honefly
and disinterestedness of the governnynt displayed in the measure,
bv a continuance of the pundual discharge of foreign intercft, by
the full provision to be made for the whole foreign debt, and the
equal pun&uality he hoped to fee in the future payments on the
oomeftic debts. Hetrufted also, that all future loans would be
founded on a previous establishment of adequate funds ; and that
« situation like the present would be thereby rendered impossible.
He could not but regard the present cafe as so extraordinary,
m many refpc&s, that the ordinary maxims were not ftriftly ap
plicable to it. The flufryations of stock in Europe, so often le
lerred to. bore no cdmparifon with those in the United States.
The former never exceeded ,50, 60, or 70 per cent : can it be said,
that because a government thought this evil infutficient to juflifv
an interference, it would view in the fame light a fluctuation
amounting to 7 or 800 per c?nt. ?
He was of opinion, that were Great Britain, Holland, or any
other country, to fund its debt precisely in the situation of the
American debt, some equitable interference of the government
■would take place. The South Sea scheme, in which a change a
mountingto 1000 per cent. happened in the value of flock, is
"well known to have produced an interference, and without any in
jury whatever to the subsequent credit of the nation. It was
true that, in many refpefts, the cafe differed from that of the
United States ; but, in other refpe&s there was a degree of fimi-
Jitude which warranted the conjecture. It may be objected, that
such a provision as he proposed would exceed the public ability :
He did not tinnk the public unable to discharge honorably all its
engagemenr.% or that it would be unwilling, if the appropriations
should be fatisfa&ory. He regretted, as much as any member,
the unavoidable weightand duration of the burdens to be imposed ;
having never been a proselyte to the doctrine that public debts
are public benefits. He confiderea them, on the contrary, as
evils which ought to be removed as fail as honor and iuftice would
permit, and should heartily join in the means neceflary for that
purpose. He concluded with delating his opinion, that if any
cafe were ro happen among individuals, bearing an analogy to that
of the public, a court of equity would interpose for its rcdrefs ; or
that if a tribunal existed on earth, by which nations could be
compelled to do right.the United States would be compelled to do
something not difiimilar in its principles to what he contended for.
FRIDAY, FERRUARY 12.
rf tic Delate on the queflwn for the Memorials on :\r
Mr. Ti'cker said, that he was forrv there appeared to be To
f reat a majority of the House in favor of giving the Memorial a
second reading as lie conceived it to be foglaringan interference
with the Confiitution. that he had hoped the House would not have
,*;iven so much countenance to a request so improper in itfelf.—
He was sorry that the society had discovered so little prudence in
their memorial, as to wish that Congress (hould intermeddle in
the interna! regulations of the parti cular States. He was forrv that
another Memorial on the fubjrft, signed bv a pcrfon who ought
to have known the Constitution better, had been offered to the
House. He hoped the petition would not be commited, as it would
operate direttly againftthe interest of those it was designed to be
nefit : This is a business that may be attended with themoft serious
consequences : It may end in a subversion of the government, be
ing a di reft attack on the rights and property of the Southern
States.' He then enquired what fatisfaftion was to be made to
the proprietors of Slaves : He believed it was not in the power of
the States, to make indemnification for the loss that would attend
their emancipation : He leprobated the 'interposition of the socie
ty, and denied that they poficfied any more humanity than other
denominations.
Mr. Seney replied to Mr. Tucker, and defircd the gentleman to
point out any part of the memorial which proposed that the legi
slature (hould infringe the Constitution. For his part he heard
nothing read that had such a tendency : Its only object was, that
Congress (hould exert their constitutional authority to abate the
horrors of slavery so far as they could. He hoped the petition
■would be committed—indeed heconfidered that all altercation on
the fubjeft of commitmentwas at an end. astheHoufe had efienti
all v determined, that it should be committed.
Mr. Burke reprobated tbe commitment, as fubvcrfive of the
Constitution, as founding an alarm, and blowing the trumpet of
fed it ion in the Southern States. He fhouldoppofe the business to
tally, and ifcho'en on the committee he (hould declinc serving.
Mr. Scot was in favor of the commitment.
Mr. Jnckfon was opposed to it, and painted in flrong colors the
alarming confluences to be apprehended from taking up the bu
siness—revolt, infurre&ion. and devastation—and concludcd by
an observation similar to Mr. Burke's.
Mr, Sherman could fee no difficulty in committing the memo
rial : The committee rnav bring in such a.report as may prove
fatisfaftory to gentlemen on all Ades.
Slave Trade.
Mr. Baldwiri referred to the principles of accommodation
which prevailed atthetimeof forming the government. Those ,
mutual conceflions which then took place gave us a constitution
which was to ensure the peace and the equal rights and properties
of the various States : And to prevent all infraction of tiieir rights
in this particular instance, they precluded themselves by an ex
press stipulation from all interpolation in the slave trade. Congress
are not called upon to declare their lentiments upon this occasion ;
thev cannot conftiiutionally interfere in the business. He depre
cated the consequences of i'uch a measure in very forcible terms ;
and hoped the House would proceed no further in the iuveftiga
tion of the fubjeft.
Mr. Sylvester laid, that he always had been in the habit of re
fpefting the society called Quakers ; he relpetted them for jjtheir
exertions in the caufc of humanity; but he thought the preient
was not the proper time to enter into a consideration of the fub
jett.
Mr Lawrance observed that the fubjett would undoubtedly
come under the consideration of the House, and he thought that
as it was now before them, the present time was as proper as any ;
he hoped therefore that the memorial would be committed lor
the purpose ot examination ; when this examination has taken
place, Congress may determine how far they may conllitutionally
interfere; and surely there is no danger of our exceeding our
powers, we know what they are, and (hall undoubtedly keep
within their limits in all our deliberations and decisions.
Mr. Smith (S. C.) recurring to the memorials,obferved that Con
gress could not conllitutionally interfere in the business upon the
prayer of the memorialists, as that went to an entire abolition of
slavery : Ii could not therefore with propriety be referred to a
committee.
In the southern States, difficulties on this account, had ari
sen in refpeft to the ratification of the constitution, and except
their apprchenfions on this head had been diftipated by their pro
perty's being secured and guaranteed to them by the constitution
ltfelt, they never would have adopted it. He then depicted the
miseries that would result from the interference of Congress, in
the southern governments—he after ted as his opinion that if there
were no slaves in the southern States they would be entirely de
populated—that from the nature of the country it could not be
cultivated without them—that their proprietors are persons of as
much humanity as the inhabitants of any part of the Continent—
they areas conspicuous for their morals as any of their neighbors.
He then afterted that the Quakers are a society not known to the
laws ; they stand in exa£lly the fame situation with other religious
societies ; their memorial relates to a matter in which they are no
more interested than any other feft whatever; and it must there
fore be considered in the lic;ht of advice ; and is it customary to
refer a piece of advice to a committee ? He then contrasted this
memorial with one which might be presented from the sett called
Shaking Quakers, whose principles and practices are repiefented
in a very exceptionable point of light, and asked, whether Con
gress would pay any attention to such a memorial. He hoped
that the memorial would not be committed.
Mr. Page was in favor of the commitment—he hoped that the
benevolent designs of the refpefiablc memorialist? would not be
truftrated at the threshold. so far as to preclude a fair difcullion of
the prayer of their memorial—he observed that they do not apply
for a total abolition of flavcry—they only request that such mea
sures may be taken confident with the constitution as may finally
iflue in the total abolition of the slave trade—he could not con
ceive that the apprehensions entertained by the gentlemen ftom
Georgia and South-Carolina, were well founded, as they refpe&ed
the proposed interference of Congress.—He observed that he was
interested perhaps as much as any person in the consequences of
the measures which may be adopted, but still he had no appre
hensions of any disagreeable effects—on the contrary he thought
it probable that the reverse would be the cafe—for if he was a
Have he should think his condition much altered for the better in
the profpe£lof a future liberation—Mr. Page spoke low, we did
not hear all his observations—they were extended much further.
Mr. Madison observed, that it was his opinion yesterday, that
the best way to procerd in the business was to commit the me
morial without any debate on the fubjc£}, from what has taken
place he was more convinced of the propriety of the idea—but as
the business has engaged the attention of many members, and much
has been said by gentlemen, he would offer a few observations
for the conficieration of the House—he then entered into a critical
review of the tircumftances refpe&ing the adoption of the con
stitution, the ideas upon the limitation of the powers of Congress
to interfere in the regulation of the commerce in slaves—and (hew
ed that they undoubtedly were not precluded from interposing in
their importation—and generally to regulate the mode in which
every species of business shall be tranfa&ed—He adverted to the
western country—and the feflion of Georgia in which Congress
have certainly the power to regulate the fubjeft of slavery, which
thews that the gentlemen are niiftaken in supposing that Congress
cannot conditionally interfere in the business in any degree
whatever—He was in favor of committing the petition, and juf
tified the measure by repeated precedents in the proceedings of the
House.
Mr. Gerry entered into a juftlocation of the interference of
Congress—as being fully compatible with the conflitution—he
defcanled on the miseries to which the Africans are fubjefted bv
this traffic, and said that he r.cvcr contemplated the fubiefl,
without reflecting what his own feelings would be in rase him-'
felf, his children, or friends were placed in the fame deplorable
cireuinftances—he then adverted to the flagrant afls of cruelty
which are committed in carrying on that traffic, and asked whe
ther it ran be supposed that Congress has nopowcrto prevent such
tranfaftions as far as possible—He then referred to the constitu
tion and pointed out the reftriftions laid on the general govern
ment refpefling the importation of (laves—it is not, he pvrfumed,
in the contemplation of any gentleman in this House to violate that
part of the constitution—but that wc have a right to regulate this
business is as clear as that we have any rights whatever nor has
the contrary been (hewn by any person who has spoke on the oc
casion—Congress can agreeable to the conflitution, lay a duty of
tdn dollars a head on (laves—they mav do this immediately he
made a calculation of the value of' the (laves in the southern States
—he fuppo<Vd they might lie worth about 10 millions of dollars,
—Congrels have a right if they fee proper to make a proposal to
the southern States to purchase the whole of them, and their re
sources in the western territory may furnilh them with the means
—he did mean to fugged a measure of this kind—he only inftan
ccd these particulars to shew that Congress certainly have a right
to intermeddle in this bufinefs—hethought that no objection had
been offered of any force to prevent the committing of the me
morial.
Mr. Boudinot was In favor of the commitment and enlarged
on the idea suggested by Mr Gerrv, and observed that the memo
rial contained only a recjueft, that Congress would interfere their
authority in the cause of humanity and mercv.
Mr. Gerry and Mr. Stone, severally fpoke'again on the fubjeft,
tne latter gentleman in opposition to the commitment said, that
this memorial was a thing of courfe—for there never was a society
of any considerable extent which did not interfere with the con
cerns of other people, and this interference has at one time or o
ther deluged the world in blood—on this principle he was op
posed to the commitment.
ERR ATUM In Mr. Gerry's Speech, in our lajl,f o r " ultima rex
reg urn, reaa ultima lex regum.
MOVDAY. FEBRUARY '15.
Mr. Goodhue presented the petition of Hannah Treat, which
was read and laid on the table.
Mr Thatcher prcfentcd the petition of John Stone, dating that
lie had invented an improved method of dHVVQ® Piles b v which
the erecting bridges over rivers may be greatly facilitated— laid on
354
On motion of Mr. Benfori, the memorial of Brigadier Gen
Donald Campbell was read a second time, and referred to a com*
mittce, confuting of Mr. Bland, Mr. Cadwallader and Benfon m ~
On motion of Mr. Wadfworth, the petition of Isaac TrowbricU
was read a second time, and referred to the Post Master General '
In committee of the whole on the Report of the Secret m ' c
the Treasury.
Mr. Madiforrs motion for a discrimination under confid fra( ; 0
Mr. Sedgwick observed, that the proportion contained a queltior"
of the utmost importance : That the committee mull be obho a
to the gentleman who brought it forward, for bis very 1:. -- n
difcuOion of the fubjeft of the Domestic Debt.
With rclpeft to the question now before the Committee f 0
much has been said, he thought it would not be neceflary to con
sume much ot their time in the invelligation.
On the fubjeft of Contracts he observed. When ever a volun
tary engagement is made for a valuable confidfcration, for proper
ty advanced, or ferviccs rendered, and the terms of thecontraft are
understood, if no fraud orimpofition is pra&ifed, the party enwe
fing is bound to performance according to the literal meaning of
the words in which it is exprefTed.
That such contra#, whether of a government or an individual
might be either transferable, or not transferable.
That the latter species ofcontratt received an additional value
from its capacity of being transferred, if the circumstances of the
pofleffor ftiould render a sale of it neceflary or convenient to him.
That to render the transferable quality of such evidences of conl
tra&, in any degree advantageous to the pofTcffor it was neceflary
to consider the alienee poflefled, in cafe of sale, of all the property
of thcoriginal holder ; and indeed that it was highly absurd, and
even contradi&ory to fay, that such evidences of debt were trans
ferable, at the fame time to fay, that there was in them a kind of
property that the holder could not convey by bona fide contrast.
That this was the conftruftion which had invariably been given
to these contratts whether formed by government or by individuals.
That to deprive the citizen of the power of binding himfelfby
his own voluntary contrafr, or to prevent a disposition of proper
ty in its nature alienable, would be a violent and unjuftifiable in
vasion of one of those rights of which man as a citizen is the most
tenacious, and would indeed break one of the strongest bonds by
which society is holdcn together.
That in the transfers which had been made, the contrasts were
fairly made ; the whole rights had been transferred; that it was
not pretended any fraud or impofuion had been pra&ifed : the
risque was calculated by the parties, and it was obfervcd, that the
risque contemplated a revolution in the government.
From the foregoing dedu&ion of particulars, it was presumed
to have been proved that a property was vested in the transferees.
That if this property was diverted by the government, the law for
that purpose would have a retrofpe&ive operation, and that no
ex pojl faflo\?.v/ could be more alarming than that by which the
right of private property was violently invaded.
Having considered the nature of the contratt, and of the obli
gations which resulted from it, the attention of the committee was
called to advert to those circumstances by which that obligation
might be deftroved, impaired or suspended. They were stated
to be i. Performance.
2. Voluntary discharge.
3. Composition.
4. Inability.
And gentlemen were called upon to give information of any
other caufrs which could produce either of those effects.
With regard more particularly tothe proposition before the com
mittee, it was observed, that with regard to these contra&s, there
had existed a depreciation in confequenceof the failure of govern
ment regularly to pay the interest : That in this depreciated Hate
the ferurities had been alienated ; that of course the original hold
ers had sustained a loss ; that if the loss resulted from the fault,
and not the mislortune of the government, the creditor had unde
niably a demand againftthe government for compensation ; that
this demand however well founded could never authorise the go
vernment to invade the honestly acquired property of the prcfent
pofTeflors, a property warranted by the terms of the contratt itfelf,
and fanftioned by the Ast of Congress of April 1783. and the va
lidity of it recognized by the Conllitution wehad fworntofupport.
With regard to the claims of the original holders it wa?, how
ever. observed, that the domestic creditor at the time the contrast
was formed, well knew the nature of the constitution of the go
vernment administered by the other contratting party, Congress;
that its power of performance depended on the ability and good
will of the States ; that Congress had always performed its duty,
had made the necedary requisitions; that this was its utmost pow
er ; that the failure had arisen wholly from the ncgleft of the States.
He therefore submitted to the committee, whether, if the ori
ginal holder had a jufl or equitable demand, he should not resort
to the state of which he is a member ?
It was admitted that the cafe of an original holder was indeed
a hard one ; that thefpeakcr had a refpeft for his misfortunes and
for his pretensions : That if fatisfa£lion was difcovercd to bejuft
and practicable, he would not hesitate to go to the utmost ability
of the government for that purpose. But it was asked, what mer
it would the government pofTefs, if it ft ripped one class of citizens
who had acquired by the knowh and eflablifhed rules of law, pro
perty, of that property, under the specious pretence of doing jul
tice to another class of citizens.
It was observed, that it was implicitly agreed, that 80 per cent,
depreciation would not authorize the interference proposed by
the motion. It was asked that some point of depreciation should
W pointed out which would authorise such interference.
It was observed that the fide of the queftionfor which he con
tended, had received the universal approbation of mankind ; that
there was no instances of interference contended for, and that
this general sense of mankind afforded some evidence of truth.
It was said, that this contrast was founded on a valuable con
fidcration. It was the price of ourliberry and independence.
1 hat the pofleffor claimed according to the very terms of the
contract. That it was not pretended that the engagement of go
vernment had been performed. No composition with the credi
tor was proposed ; nor was the proposition founded on any pre
tended inability of the government; for to comply with the in
tention of it, 1,600,000 annually more, was neceffaiy
than was proposed by the report of the Secretary.
It was observed that by reason of the circumstances which had
taken place Mr. Madison supposed that if the whole amount of
a fecuritv (hall be paid to the present podeflor, he will have a sum
of money to which the original holder is equitably entitled. It
this is true then no interposition is necefiary, it being a well
known rule of law, that an a£lion will always lie to recover
money out of the hands of another to which the plaintiff from
the principles of equity and good conscience is entitled.
With regard to the effe&s which would probably rcfult from
this measure, it was observed that it would be deflruftive to our
national character : That the world was now willing charitably
to impute our former miscarriages to events we could not con
troul. But Ihould our firft measures in regard to public faith be a
violent mfraflion of our contra&s, it would fan£tion all our
bitterest enemies have said to our disadvantage.
With regard to its effe&s on credit, it was observed, that litt*e
dependence would be placed on the plighted faith of a govern
ment which under the pretence of doing equity* had exercised a
power of d ifpenfing with its contrasts, and had thereby formed
for itfclf a precedent of like future violations both with iefpefl to
its funds and contrails.
I hat With regard to discovering who was the origina? holder,
except so far as refpe6led the army debt,it was declared that there
were no documents by which the neceltary fatts could be disco
vered.
It was dated as a facl that with regard to much the greater part
of the debt, any fictitious name was inserted. That with regar