Mr. Boudinot*'followed Mr. Hartley in repro
bating the objedt of theprefent amendment—He
said that if he could conceive with the hon. gen
tleman from Pennsylvania, that the public securi
ties had been received by the creditors of the U
nited States as being worth no more than 2/6 in
the pound, he should molt corclially acquiesce in
the inference he deduced from such a polition—
he ihould be for coniidering thein in the fame
light as he did the bills of credit, or old continen
tal money; as tliecircunillanceof its being'under-
stood that they were worth no more at the time,
would render it just and equitable to determine
their value accordingly—but a recurrence to the
resolutions of Congress under which the eviden
ces of the debt now under consideration were if
sued, will fulficitntly explode such a fuppofnion.
No idea of payment's being made, by those securi
ties, was ever entertained—they were in fac't, and
were so considered, evidences of the liquidated
and fpeeific sums due to the creditors of the Uni
ted States, hence it is inconteftibly evident, that
the securities were not considered as payment,any
more than the settlement of any private account
can be considered as a discharge of such account.
The firft evidences of the debt were not transfer
able, and had not Congress afterwards made those
certificates or evidences of the debt transferable,
they in lilt have remained in the hands of original
holders ; but for the particular accommodation
and advantage of the original holders, Congress
afterwards made them transferable—and thisftep
so far from benefiting the i reditois, would have
proved a real injury to them, if the assignee could
have been fuppofeu to itand in a less eligible si
tuation than the afllgnor. Upon every principle
of afiignation of debts and contracts, such an idea
ought to be reprobated. He adduced several in
ltances of the disadvantageous circuinftances un
der which the creditors ot the United States had
been paid—from which it appeared that manifeft
injustice would be done to many persons in the
payments they had received, fliould the full a
mount of their securities be paid them infpecie—
from all which, and many other considerations
which he added, he inferred, that no idea exill
ed in the mind of any person, either soldier or
citizen, that the securities were considered or re
ceived as a full discharge of the demands against
the public. Mr. Boiidinot founded many of his
observations on resolves of the late Congress which
he read, on his own knowledge of the particular
circumstances under which the public paper of the
United States had been ilfued, as he was in Con
gress at the periods referred to.
Mr. Scot observed, in answer to Mr. Boudinot,
that other resolutions ofthe late Congress might
be adduced which held a different language—and
the conduct of government in regard to the pa
per money at different periods, plainly proved
that it was considered as jnit and proper for them
to interfere and determine the value of those evi
dences of debt. Mr. Scot then referred to the
observation ofMr. Sedgwick, in which he had laid
that the molt alarming consequences w»re to be
apprehended from not coming to a decision upon
this important business the present felTion. He
wished that gentleman would point out the evils
•which were to be apprehended—for his own part
he did not suppose that the holders of public secu
rities would cut the throats of Congress, for a
neceflary delay in funding the debt.
?-Ir. Sedgwick replied to the enquiry,and point
ed out a great variety of confidera'tions which
mnft appear weighty and important if juflly con
sidered by the committte. A great and refpefta
ble body of our citizens are creditors of the Uni
on—their expectations are on ihe decisions ofthe
present session of Congress.
"1 here are various opinions prevailing refpeCi
ing the debt in regard to discrimination, inter
est, and funding—On these points there appears
to be a great diversity of opinion—Heats and ani
mosities will grow out of this opposition of sen
timent, and a spirit of party will probably termi
nate in forming factions among the people, that
may be pittedagainft each other,and may destroy
the public tranquility and blast the hopes and
prospeCts of the people under the government
now so happily established.—These are among
the many consequences to be apprehended—but
the reputation, the credit of the States, are at
stake.—The circuinftances that affeifl these are
often in themselves of small importance—at the
present moment the public expectation is alive to
the measures of government —it lays with the
legislature to realize this expectation,fo far as jus
tice, equity and the abilities of our country de
mand. If Congress pursue the present enquiry
and come to a determination, the general senti
ment w ill be brought to a point and a probable
acquiescence in \vhat is done—and all the evils
of faClion, disunion and disappointed expectations
prevented.
Mr. Stone was opposed to a postponement of
the business, as it involves a relinquiftiment of a]]
confederation of the fubjeft the present fefiion.
Mr. Stone reprobated al\ funding systems, as
productive ot mifchief and poverty —factitious
credit was but a li'ode of acquiring the means of
fliedcling the blood and cutting the throats of our
neighbors.—The credit of this country, he said,
does not depend on any paper schemes of credit.
It cannot be established suddenly, in a day, or a
year.—lt depends on the evidence we giveo'f an
honesty of principle. He observed that the situ
ation of the United States is fodiiFerent from those
of the countries who are proposed as models of
imitation in our financial arrangements, that
such fy Items are no ways applicable".
Mr. Smith (S. C.) made a few remarks on Mr.
Scot's amendment—And in a ihort reply to some
of Mr. Jackson's observations, quoted Blackftone
against Hlackftone.
Mr. Gerry afcer touching upon Mr, Scot's a
mendment turned his attention to an observation
which was made by Mr. Jackson, viz. that America
owed her independence principally to her joreign loans.
Mr. Gerry in contraftingthe foreign and domes
tic debts, exhibited in a striking point of light,
the injustice of this observation—and from accu
rate details from the public accounts, shewed
that the domestic debt is in fadl as sixteen to one
compared to the foreign debt: He reprobated
the suggestion that the citizens of the United
States were principally indebted to foreigners
lor their liberties—the reverse appeared to be
evidently the cafe, from their immense exertions
and annual expences during the war, which he
stated at five millions sterling.—So that the debt
of the United States bears no proportion to the
acftual expences and Sacrifices of the citizens for
theacquifition of their independence— A question
here arises, what has become of the reiidue of
the debt ? To this it may be answered, that the
great mass of the difference has been funk by de
preciation on the paper money, which can be
confulered in no other light than a tax upon the
people—and which has operated perhaps as e
qually as any that might have been affefled. Mr.
Gerrv contrasted the foreign and domestic debts
in various points of view—by which it appeared
that if any discrimination should be made be
tween them, it ought to be in favor of the latter.
He then adverted to the circumstances under
which the domestic debts were contrasted, and
from tliefe, deduced the injustice and ill policy
of a re-liquidation—he reprobated giving the
preference to our foreign creditors in the provi
sion to be made for payment of the interest.
He replied to the several objedtions against
funding the debt and procrastinating the buiineSs,
and by several familiar instances in common life,
enforced the absolute neceflity of the measure, as
the only possible expedient of doingjuftice which
presented.
He added many other observations upon the
fubjeOt—and concluded with this striking obser
vation, that if the United States while they
make provision for their foreign creditors Ihould
at the fame time abandon their domestic—it will
give occasion to fay, that the ultima rex regurn,
and not a principle of honor and justice, was the
influencing cause.
Mr. Tucker observed, that he was in favor of
a (lifcrimination among the creditors of the Uni
ted States—he did not however entirely agree
in the motion now before the committee—He
then divided the public creditors into three clafles
—the holders of old continental billsof credit or
paper money—the original holders of liquidated
(ecurities—and those who held the latter by pur
chase—the old paper money he said (liould be con
solidated at forty for one, principal—with inter
est at fix percent.—for these, and thefecond class
of creditors provision ought to be made without
delay to pay them their interest at fix per cent.
—with refpetfl to the third class, they are en
titled by the engagements of the country to an
interest of fix per cent.—this he said they ought
to receive when the country fliall be in circunj
ftances to pay— he therefore proposed that this
class should be referred to a future period for
payment —he thought that the second resolution
in the report would in some measure preclude a
discussion of the subsequent ones—he therefore
proposed an amendment by adding these words,
" as ftiall appear confifterit with equity and the
improving resources of the country."
The question being taken on Mr. Scots' motion,
it palled in the negative by a great majority.
Mr. Burke then moved the following amend
ment " provided a discrimination be made be
tween the original holders and their allignees,
and that a scale 6f depreciation be prepared ac
cordingly,"—This being seconded, was laid on
the table. Adjourned.
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY u
A memorial from the annual meeting ofFriends
at Philadelphia, refpefting the Slave Trade, and
praying the interposition of Congress for the mi
tigation of the evils, and final abolition of that
pernicious traffic, was presented by Mr. Fitzfi
mons. Another memorial on the fame fubjedt,
from the meeting of Friends in New-York, was
presented by Mr. Lawrance. These were both
read, and on motion that they fliould be read a
fecondtime, in order to their being committed—
a warm debate ensued, which ended this day in
withdrawing the motion for a second reading.—
The order of the day was then taken up, and the
Honfe went into a committee of the whole on the
report of the Secretary of the Treasury.
-351-
Mr. Burke's amendment to the second reSolu
tion, which was laid on the table yesterday was
read, viz. Provided nevertheless that a discrimi
nation ought to be made between the original
holders of publicfecurities and aftignees, and that
a icale of depreciation be prepared accordingly"
After a few observations on this propofitioif.by
' • Smith, S. C. it was withdrawn by Mr. Burke.
A message was received from tlie Senate by
their Secretary, informing the House, that they
have palled arefolve .'empowering the Prelident of
the Uni ted States to appoint three commilfioners
to enquire into the receipts and expenditures of
public monies by, and to examine and admit the
accounts of, the late Superintendant of Finance
and requesting the concurrence of the House in
laid reiolve.
Mr. Burke s amendment being withdrawn, Mr.
Madison entered into a lengthy difculfion of the
iubjett of the public debt—towards the close of
his speech he proposed that a discrimination should
be made between the original holders of public
Securities, and those who hold them by purchase.
His plan is that the firft Ihould be paid the full
Sum promised, with interest at 6 pr. cent. The
aftignees or purchasers, to be paid the a
verage sum they have been fold at, and to thoSes
who have alienated them, the residue, and both
to receive interest at 6 pr. cent. Government not
to avail itfelf of the leall advantage in the tran
saction.
Mr. Livermore moved that the resolution should
be amended by infertiug after the word inter eft,
at a certain rate ' —this motion was negatived.
Mr. Madison propoSed an amendment to the
resolution, agreeable to the principles of his
speech. Thispropofition remains to be discussed.
Adjourned.
FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 12.
A memorial from the PennSylvaniaSociety, for
the abolition of slavery, signed by Benja. Frank
lin, President, was read.
Mr. Hartley moved that the memorials present
ed yesterday should be read the second time,which
was agreed to by a large majority. He then mo
ved that they should be referred to a feled: com
mittee—which motion brought on a debate which
lasted till near three o'clock.
The question being called for, Mr. Smith, S. C.
moved that it be determined by Ayes and Noes,
a fufficient number of members appearing in fa
vor of this motion, it was thus determined.
AYES—Meflrs Ames, Benfon, Boudinot,Brown,
Cadwallader, Clymer, Fitzfimons, Floyd, Foster,
Gale, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Griffin, Grout,
Hartley, Hathorne, Heifter, Huntington, Law
rance, Lee, Leonard, Livermore, Madifon,Moore,
P. Muhlenberg, Page, Parker, Partridge, Ranfel
laer, Schureman, Scot, Sedgwick, Seney, Sher
man, Sinnickfon, Smith M. Sturgis, Thatcher,
Trumbull, Wadfworth, White, Wynkoop. 43.
NOES—MelTrs Baldwin, Bland, Burke, Coles,
Huger, Jackson, Matthews, Sylvefter,Smith, S.C.
Stone, Tucker. 11.
The memorials were referred to a committee
offeven members.
On motion of Mr. Lawrance, the petition of
George Bowne, of the society for the abolition
of slavery in this city, on the fame fubjed:, was
read, and referred to the fame commitee.
The House then adjourned till Monday.
We have prepared a (ketch of the Deba'es of Thursday
and yesterday, which want of room obliges us to defer til] Wed
nesday.
NEW-YORK, FEBRUARY 13.
Extrad of a letter, dated Paris, Nov. the 3d. 1789.
[The Editor, fearing it would not be in his power to introduce
into the translation the peculiar eleganceof the extract, flatters him
felf the perusal of it in the original language will not be unaccept
able to a considerable number of his read ers.]
■' Votre hiros devenu le notre, eft comme vous le spaves a la
'' 1• rr •'* cctte ca P'talle, ainsy queries troupes que la
neceilite a oblige le gouvernement d'y faire venir j vous fcaves fans
doute tout ce qui c'eft pafle icy depuis la premiere epoque, lorsque
deux centsmille hommesayant resolu d'acquerir leurliberie, pro
nonperent sonnom par acclamation & le nommerent leur chef;
quelle dcftinee quelle gloire ! Efperons que le genereux deffen
ieur de la liberie, n'aura pas inutilement foutenu sa noble cause,
que fes talents etfes vertus si dignement rcconniies en Amerique)
vont repevoirune nouvelle recompense dans son propre pays;
il fe montre de plus en plusdignedespoftes eminents, ou fondefiin
M pe i' e ' le Geniral Washington, devenu supreme
Magiftrat des etats rouvellement reunis n'apprendra pas fans plaisir
que son fils adoptif, son elcve, son imule, marche dans la carriere
de la vraye gloire, en imitant les vertus ainfy que les fucces de
son illuftre & refpeftable maiftre.
" Lefilsdu Marquis que je vois fouvent George Washing
ton la Fayette continiic demeritertoute la tendreffe de son
Pere ; il eft sous Lieutenant dans notre milice ; ah jeune hoirnnc
quels noms vous portes ! quelle gloire ! mais quelle tasche davoir
de tels parents & de tels examples a fuivre ! &c. &c.
Extract as alette from Bojlon, Feb. 3.
You have obliged me by the copy of Mr. Hamilton's system of
finance—he has so well digested and explained his plan, that I
am of opinion the opposition to it mud be feeble, and cannot pre
vail fofaras to effect any material alterations—the creditors in
MafTachufetts will cheerfully accede to his propositions ; but will
universally revolt at a reduction of the interest below four pr. cent.
Tney are confident Mr. Hamilton's abilities are adequate to
carrying his ideas into effect, with advantage to the community ;
and in particular that they will serve to create a beneficial me
dium, very much wanted, to put in motion the industry of the
country —the constitution of this State was preserved in the late
rebellion, through the exertions of the public creditors—and thev
contributed molt eflentially to the eftablilhment of the general
government—in this view, it appears of the lafl importance to the
liberties of the people, which are inseparably connected with the
constitution, to consolidate and I'ecure 'he attachment of so influ
ential a part of the communis.