Gazette of the United-States. (New-York [N.Y.]) 1789-1793, August 19, 1789, Image 3

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    The representations of fcveral ot th= ftius are too large, and
, l>,n iullW complained of; the lights ot the people are Uc
s3"f 3 " in a large, than in a small = (Ternbly > The great object r.
f Ur Ltion; and this may be acquired by a small number, and
!" hitter purpose than by a large.
I has been laid that a future legiflaturf will not encreafe the
ber should it be found necelfary : If that supposition is true,
"h"orefent house wiil not agree to this motion, unlets we sup-
V that a future house will be less patriotic than the present :
largeness of the number being a l'ecurity against corrup
" Ido not think it is; the Britifli house of commons confilts
nf upwards of 500 members, and yet money enough has always
h . found to corrupt a fufficiertt nuinberforthe minifter'spurpofe.
Mr Madison observed that as the number 200 had been
ntioned in the ratifications of several of the ilates and no fub
fbntial reason lias been afiigned why their expectation should not
he comnhed with, it is reasonable to adopt this motion : Not,
said he, that I would have the house give up their own judgement,
when any lubftantial reason to the contrary is offered.
Mr. Laurance, Mr. Gerry, Mr .Li vek more, Mr.
Sedgwick, Mr. Pace, Mr. Tucker, and Mr. Stone, fev
crally spoke upon this motion —which was finally carried in the
affirmative The paragraph as amended was agreed to by the
committee. .
The third amendment is " Art. r, bee. 2. Par. 3—Strike out
all between the words " direst" and " until such," and instead
thereof, insert but no law varying the compenfution, Jhall take ejfelt,
until an election 0] representatives Jhall have intervened. The mem-
This clause was debated for a (horttime, and then thequeftion
teing taken, it was carried.
Mr. Leonard had leave of ablence for one mouth.
In committee of the whole, on amendments to the constitu
tion—-the fourth amendment under consideration ; viz. Art. 1.
Sec. 9, between Par. 2 and 3 insert "no religionJkall be >Jlablifh
dix law, nor Jhali the equal rt 0 hts of confaence be in) sing ed. '
Mr. Sylvester laid he doui ted tne propriety of the mode
ofcxprcflion used in this paragraph; he thought it was liable to
aconftru&ion different from what was intended|by the committee
Mr. Sherman. It appears to mebeft that this article should
be omitted intirely : Congress has no power to make any religious
cftablifoments, it is therefore unneoeffary.
Mr. Carrol, Mr. Hunti not on, Mr. M add i son, and Mr.
Livermore made some observations : The laii proposed that
the words should be (truck out to fubftitu:c these words, " Con
sr(fsJhill make no laws touching religion or the rights of conscience.
The question on this motion was carried.
Fifth amendment. The Jreedom oj speech, and of the press, and
{J the rights of the people pcaceably to ajjemble and consult jor their
common good, and to apply to government for the rcdrej> of grievances
fall not be injringed.
Mr. Sedgwick moved to strike out the words {| afTemble
and" This lsafelf vident unalienable right of th people, said
he, and it does appear to me below the: dignity of this houf , 10
insert such things in the constitution. The right will be as fully
itsogniztd if the words are itruck out, as if they were retained :
For if the people may converse, they must meet for the purpose.
This motion was opposed by Mr. Gerry, Mr, Pace, Mr.
ViNiNG and Mr. Hartly ; and the queilion being taken it
was negatived.
Mr. ITucker moved to insert these words, to infruEl their
tifrtkntalivess This produced a long debate.
Mr. Hartley. I could wish, Mr. chairman, that these
words hid not been propose d. Rcprefentativcs ougnt to po fiefs
the confidence of tiitir constituents ; they ought to rely on their
honour and integrity. The practice of inftrutling representatives
may be attended with danger ; we have seen it attended with bad
consequences; it is commonly refprted to tor party purposes, and
when the p»ilions are up. It is a r ght, which even in England
is considered a problematical. The right of mftrufcting is liable
to greatabufes; it will generally be exercised in umes of popular
commotion; and these mftruaions will rather express the pre
judices of party, than tfie di&ates of reason and policy. I nave
known, Sir, fomany evils arise from adopting the popular opin
ion of the moment, that I hope this <*ov rnment will be guard d
againA ftich an influence ; and wish the words may not be in
Mr. Pace was in favour of the motion- H© said, that the
right may well be doubted in a monarchy ; but in a government
iflftituted for the sole purpose of guarding the rights of the peo
ple) it appears to me to be pi oper.
Mr.CiYMER: I hope, Sir, the clause will not be adopted, for
ifitis, we We must go further, and fay, that the representatives arc
hand by the inftruttions, which is a mod dangerons principle, and
udeftru&ive of all ideas of an independent and deliberative body.
Mr.Sherman said, these words had a tendency to miflcad the
people, by conveying an idea that they had a right to controul the
debates of the federai legislature. Inflruftions cannot be consider
ed as a proper rule for a rcprefentative to form his conduct by ;
thev cannot be adequate to the purpose for which he i> delegated.
He is to consult the good of the whole : Should inftruftions there
fore coincide with his ideas of the common good, they would be
unneceflary : If they were contrary, he would be bound by every
principle of justice to disregard them.
Mr. Jackson opposed the motion : He said this was a danger
ous article, as its natural tendency is to divide the house into fac
tions : He then adverted to the absurdities and inconsistencies which
would beinvolved in adopting the measure.
Mr. Gerry supported the motion : He observed, that to sup
pose we cannot be inftru&ed, is to suppose that we are perfect :
The power of inftru&ion is in my opinion cflential to check anad
toimftration which should be guilty of abuses : No one will deny
1 ma y not happen :To deny the people this right is to ar-
r ®pteto ourselves more wisdom than the whole body of the peo-
Pepoliefs.—l contend, Sir, that our constituents have not only
® ri ght to inflruQ, but to bind this legiflature—lt has been con
ed by the friends to the constitution, that the people are so-
S n ; if so it involves an abfurdityto suppose that they cannot.
°°t only inftruft, but controul the house : Debates may create
10ns, as well as inftruftions : We cannot be too well informed ;
is is the befl method of obtaining information, and I hope we
a never shut our ears against that information which is to be de-
V \r v oice of the people.
j /" adis °n that the exiftcnce of this right is at
oujtlul. —I wish that the amendments may consist of an enu-
ration of simple and acknowledged principles : The insertion
propo.uions that are of a doubtful nature, will have a tenden-
Cn judicethe whole amendments: The right rtow
ted is doubtful, and will be so considered by many of the
t ru Cs ' * n *° me refpe&s the declaration of this right may be
t'tiat'/h ° ' 8 e • we m ean nothing more by it than this,
rcen'^^ eC^'e 3Ve 8 r 'S^ lt to g' vc advice or express their fenti
jlrpi an wi(he. it is true; but still unneceftary, as such a right is
h aVf 7 r J co gnized : The press shall be free, and the people shall
mea f ar^ c f r eedom of speech and petitioning: but ifitis
the nr 3t 1 re P rc^cntat ' ve s are to be bound by these intrusions,
f els • Suppose a rcprefentative is inftru6led to do
cr ifice b' C ° ntrar y tot ! le P good ? Would he be bound to fa
contrarvt°L will not the vote of a
ent o ne ? if 'r^ ru^on as binding on the people as a differ
ent to'" n n » sar e true, where is the right of the confti-
must piti/f ' or is the advantage to tcfult from it?
' tf anbe / P erte^ other obligations, the most sacred ;or
people are ik™) to l^e people. The gentlemau fays, the
K ove reign; but who are thepeople ? Is every small
Ms the vft" Eo? f E /- inhabitants of this diftrift ex
lcc 0 People, when they may not be a thousandth
par', and all tne.r inftru&ions may contradict the sense of the
a hole people besides ? H .ve the people in detached alTemblies
i right to violate the conltitution or controul the whole sovereign
power? This would be setting up an hundred fovereign.les in the
place of one.
Mr. Smith (S. C.) was onpofed to the motion : The do£trine
>f mitruttions would, in practice, operate partially : The States
near the Tat of government will have an obvious advantage over
those remote from it: There is no neceflity for so large a reprefen
tatlon as has been determined on, if the members are to be guided
in all their deliberations by positive inftruftions ; one member
from a State will serve every purpose ; bi* then the nature ot the
•jfLmbly will be changed trom a to a diplomatic bo
dy : It would in fa£t be turning all our representatives into am
Mr. Stone observed that to adopt this motion would change
the nature'of the conltitutiou ; instead of being a representative
government, it would be a singular kind of democracy ; in which,
whenever aqueftion arises, what is the law P It will not be deter
mined by recurring to the codes and institutions of Congress,
but by collecting the various instruCtions from different parts of
the Union.
Mr. Gf.rry observed that several of the States had proposed
this amendment, which rendered it proper to be attended to :
In answer to Mr. Madison's query he fa id, he meant that induc
tions thould be consistent with the laws and the conltitution.
Mr. Li ve r more said that though no particular diitntts cou d
inftru£t, yet the Legillatures of the States most undoubtedly pof
felTcd this right.
This assertion of Mr. Livermore was controverted by sev
eral genclemen—by Mr. Sedgwick, Mr. Smith, Mr. Ames,
nd Mr. Wads worth : The lall, speaking on the fubj ct ot
inftrultions in general, said, I never knew merely political in
tlru£tions to be observed ; and I never knew a repiefentativc
brought to an account for it: But I have known representatives
follow inftruftions, contrary to their private sentiments, and they
have ever been despised for it. Oihei shave disregarded their in
ftruftions, and have been re-ele£ted, and carefled. Now if tht
people considered it as an inherent right in them to inftrutt their re
presentatives, they would undoubtedly have punished the viola
tion of such inftruftions ; but this I believe has never been the cafe.
I consider the measure As haviug a miichicvous tendency.
The debate was continued much longer, but in a desultory
way, as the speakers appeared to take it tor granted, that they
might touch upon collateral circumstances. The question on th
motion being at length taken, it was negatived by a larg major
ity; and then the committee agreed to the amendment in us o
riginal form.
The committee rose and the chairman reported progress.
Mr. Am es introduced a motion that all questions on amend
ments should be determined in committee, by two thirds of the
members. Laid on the table. Adjourned,
In committee of the whole on the fubjeft of amendments to the
The 6th and 7th amendm nts were agreed to without alteration.
In the on mot ion ol Mi. LAURANCE,aiter the words " nor
shall" these words were infertcd, m any criminal cases The 9th
wa> adopted without alteration. In the 10th, on motion ot Mr.
Benson, after the words 4 * and ess its' thef words were infertcd,
againji unreafonabte searches and seizures." 11th, 12th, 13th ana
14th, were agreed to in the.r original form. The committee
then rose, and the house adjourned.
The committee appointed to bring in a bill to regulate the Post-
Office, brought in arefoive, which, with the Preamble, was to the
following efteft, That as the shortness of the time previous to the
adjournment would not admit of making the necelTjry arrange
ments, therefore Resolved, that the Post Master General be
directed to continue the Post Office upon the system established
by the late Congress, and that he be authorised to make the nceef
fary contiadts, &c.
Mr. Gerry introduced a motion upon the fubjeft of amend
ments, to this purpoit, That such amendments to the Constitution
of the United States as have been piopofed by the different States,
which are not in the report of the fele£t committee, be referred
to a committee of the whole house—.and that those, with the a
mendnunts proposed by that committee, be included in one re
port. This motion was introduced by a lengthy speech upon the
lubjeft of amendments at large,and was seconded by Mr. Sumpter
—This brought on a warm debate, whieh continued till near one
o'clock—when thequeltion being called for from various parts of
the house, the Ayes and Noes were required by Mr. Gerry.
Upon which' Mr. Vi ning called for the previous question, and
the Ayes and Noes were then required upon that also—this occa
sioned a further debate—at length the Speaker directed the Clerk
to call the Ayes and Noes on Shall the mam quejlion be put ?
MefTrs Ames, Baldwin, Benfon, Boudinct, Brown, Cadwallader, Car
rol, Clymer, Fitifimons, Fojler, Gilman, Goodhue, Hartley, Heijler, Hun
tington, Lanrance, Lee, Madtfon, Moore, P. Muhlenberg, Partridge,
Schureman, Scot, Sedgwick, Seney, Sylvejler, Sinnickjon, Smith, (S. C.J
Smith, (M.J Thatcher, Trumbull, fining, IVadfworth, H'ynkoop. 34.
Me firs Burke, Coles, Floyd, Gerry, Griffin, Grout, Hathorn, Liver
more, Page, Parker, Van Ranfelher, Sherman, Stone, Sturgis, Sumpter,
Tucker. 16. Majority 18.
The House then went into a committee of the whole on the re
port of the feleft comfnittee.
The five remaining amendments were agreed to by the com
mittee, with some little variation. They then rose, and the
chairman reporced their proceedings, which, it was ordered
(hould lie on the table for the consideration of the members.
A melTage was received by the senate by their secretary, in
forming the house that they had con urred with one amendment ;
in the bill to provide for the necHTary cxpences attending nego
ciations, and treating with the Indian tribes, &c.
The proposed amendment was, to strike out " Forty," and
infer!: twenty, which would make the provision for the expences
twenty thousand inftfad of torty thousand dollars.
Mr. Tucker presented a number of papers containing seven
teen proposed amendments to the constitution ; which were read
and laid on the table.
The committee on the fubjeft of the disputed election of the
members from New-Jersey, brought in a report containing a
state of facts refpefting said election, which was read, and then
the house adjourned.
Seme account of the Debates of 17 th and 18th infant, fhal! ap
pear in our vext. x
The coinmiffioners appointed by the Britifli
<rovernment, to enquire into and ascertain the
claims of the American loyalists, have finally de
termined, that no coin pen fat ion fliallbe allowed
for lofles on mortgages, bonds ai d
book debts, because those debts are recoverable
by the treaty of peace ; so that if a loyalill was
poflefled of a real estate, which the commiffion
crs allowed to be worth 20001. mortgages, bonds,
and debts, joool. but owed the fubjerts of the
United States 30001. in common jultice there
would be a balance in his favour 40C0I. but the
amount of what he owes being ioool. more than
the value of his real estate, and nothing being
allowed for his personal eltate, in fad:, in fnch an
inilance the loyaliftwill be left ioool. wotfeihan
On Saturday the lit inft. there happened at
Carlisle " the molt violent hurricatte, tenipelt or
tliunder-ftorm" that was ever known in that bo
rough, by which the Prelbyterian church, and
other public buildings, with the Rev. Mr. Da
vidfon's new brick lioufe, and several other pri
vate buildings, were unroofed, and otherways
much damaged.
Extract of a letter from Dr. Lettfom, of London, to
a friend of his in this city, datsd March 6,
" I approve the zeal expelled in thy letter, for
the promotion of universal liberty. W hen I came
of age, I found my property consisted in llaveS)
to whom I gave freedom, and left myfelf penny
left, this facrifice I have never repented of. 1 did
this a<fl of enfranchifement from no advice what
ever, but from the internal impulse of humanity,
and A conviction on my mind, that the furelt parh
to heaven was in doing to others as we would
that others should do to us. 1 sincerely wi/h
you and us success in fofiening the chains of 11a
very, and leflening the weight of the links, and
by degrees we ihall break them asunder.
The Trustees and Faculty of the Co lege ot Philadelphia have,
by diploma, granted thedegr eof Doctor in Divinit), to the Rev.
Robert Smithy Rettor of St. Paul's and Principal of Chzrkfton Col
lege, n South Carolina ; the Rev. Edward Bap, R< &or of St. Paul's*
Newbui yport,and Bishop ele& of the Proti llant Epifcopai Church
n the States of MalTachui ttsand New-Hampshire ; and the Rev.
Samuel Parker, Rcttor of Trinity Church, Eofton.
A letter from Bengal, has the following curi
ous particulars :—" At Oude, near Fyzabad, in
the province of Bengal ,is a tomb of Set ii, ( Adam's
third son) twelve feet long.
" Sujah Dowl ah's father repaired the tomb
and of Job's adjoining it. Not more than a mile
from those tombs, is a fragment of No >h's Ark;
perhaps by examining the wood, whether of Sak,
or Teke, it might be afceitained whereabouts it
was built, or discover a timber for fliip-building,
more durable than either of those."
Seventeen amendments > multiplied by fifty-nine
(the number of members in a certain aflembly)
give a produ<si of one thousand and three—lf con
ltitutions can be made perfecfl by amendments,
what a blefled chance has the constitution of the
United States !
The General Convention of the Protestant
Episcopal Church met at Philadelphia, July 2-th,
and adjourned August Btli, to meet again at the
fame place, September 29.
We are informed that the greatest harmony
pervades that refpetftable body : And that among
other business, they have formally recognized
Dr. Se abury's consecration, which act they have
communicated to him. It is expected he will meet
the Convention in September.—That the churches
to the eastward have wrote to each of our Bishops
requesting them jointly to consecrate the Rev.
Dr. Bass of Mafiachufetts Bifbop, as soon as con
venient. And that as the convention is not broke
up, the Clergy si om the Caroliiias, &c. will re
main at Philadelphia till themeetinginSeptember.
Boston papers by last night's poll fay that—
The Hon. Mr. Lincoln, colledror of Boston di
ftriethas appointed John Uic.e, Efq.deputy col
lector—Mr. William Shattuck and Patrick
Phelon, Esq. weighers and gangers—and Mr.
Jonas Clark Minot, infpettor for that diftridt.
Mr. Caleb Blodget, merchant of Boston ;
who was an officer in the late continental army,
was unfortunately drowned in Boston harbor, last:
week—his death is inoft fmcerely regreted as a
loss to the community of an amiable and worthy
On Sunday lad died, Master George Washington Knox,
youngeftfon to the Hon. Gen. Knox, Secretary at War.
" Early," bright, transient as the morning dew,
" He sparkled, was cxhal'd and went to Heaven."
Ye(\erday died Major John an officer of diftin&iori
in the Georgia line of the late American army, and treasurer of the
State Society of the Cincinnati of that ftat". His remains will,this
afternoon be interred in St. Pauls, Church-yard, attended by the
State Society of the Cincinnati of New-York, and a detachment
of Col. Bauman's artillery. He bore a tedious and lingering de
cay -with all that fortitude which his character as a soldier was
strongly marked with.
Citizens of Georgia, and friends of thedeceafed in New-York,
are requested to attend his funeral at five o'clock this afternoon,
from Mrs. Sebring's, No. 63, corner of Crown street, Broad-
The members of the New-York State Society of the Cincinnati.
ire particularly requefled to attend the funeral of the late Major Lucas
of Georgia, this afternoon, precisely at, 4 o'clock, at the City Tavern.
Those members of other State Societies, now in this citx, are alftojnvited
on the occcafion. By Order of the President.
AuguJ} 19th. John Stagg, jun. Sec'ry
Saturday, Brig Patty, Malliby, St. Thoms's, 13 days.
Schoone- Hope, Clark, Cape-Francois, 11 days.
Sunday, Sloop Ranger, Raifbeck, St. Johns, 14 days.
Schooner Nelly, Mc Neil, 17 days.
Sloop Elizabeth, Muffin, Tuiks-Ifland, 13 days.
Monday, §loop Two Friends, Smith, Alexandria, 4 davs.
j Schooner N York Packet, Barnard, Boston, Bday$ # '