The representations of fcveral ot th= ftius are too large, and , l>,n iullW complained of; the lights ot the people are Uc s3"f 3 " in a large, than in a small = (Ternbly > The great object r. f Ur Ltion; and this may be acquired by a small number, and !" hitter purpose than by a large. I has been laid that a future legiflaturf will not encreafe the ber should it be found necelfary : If that supposition is true, "h"orefent house wiil not agree to this motion, unlets we sup- V that a future house will be less patriotic than the present : largeness of the number being a l'ecurity against corrup " Ido not think it is; the Britifli house of commons confilts nf upwards of 500 members, and yet money enough has always h . found to corrupt a fufficiertt nuinberforthe minifter'spurpofe. Mr Madison observed that as the number 200 had been ntioned in the ratifications of several of the ilates and no fub fbntial reason lias been afiigned why their expectation should not he comnhed with, it is reasonable to adopt this motion : Not, said he, that I would have the house give up their own judgement, when any lubftantial reason to the contrary is offered. Mr. Laurance, Mr. Gerry, Mr .Li vek more, Mr. Sedgwick, Mr. Pace, Mr. Tucker, and Mr. Stone, fev crally spoke upon this motion —which was finally carried in the affirmative The paragraph as amended was agreed to by the committee. . The third amendment is " Art. r, bee. 2. Par. 3—Strike out all between the words " direst" and " until such," and instead thereof, insert but no law varying the compenfution, Jhall take ejfelt, until an election 0] representatives Jhall have intervened. The mem- I ITS." This clause was debated for a (horttime, and then thequeftion teing taken, it was carried. Mr. Leonard had leave of ablence for one mouth. SATURDAY, AUGUST 15, 1789. In committee of the whole, on amendments to the constitu tion—-the fourth amendment under consideration ; viz. Art. 1. Sec. 9, between Par. 2 and 3 insert "no religionJkall be >Jlablifh dix law, nor Jhali the equal rt 0 hts of confaence be in) sing ed. ' Mr. Sylvester laid he doui ted tne propriety of the mode ofcxprcflion used in this paragraph; he thought it was liable to aconftru&ion different from what was intended|by the committee Mr. Sherman. It appears to mebeft that this article should be omitted intirely : Congress has no power to make any religious cftablifoments, it is therefore unneoeffary. Mr. Carrol, Mr. Hunti not on, Mr. M add i son, and Mr. Livermore made some observations : The laii proposed that the words should be (truck out to fubftitu:c these words, " Con sr(fsJhill make no laws touching religion or the rights of conscience. The question on this motion was carried. Fifth amendment. The Jreedom oj speech, and of the press, and {J the rights of the people pcaceably to ajjemble and consult jor their common good, and to apply to government for the rcdrej> of grievances fall not be injringed. Mr. Sedgwick moved to strike out the words {| afTemble and" This lsafelf vident unalienable right of th people, said he, and it does appear to me below the: dignity of this houf , 10 insert such things in the constitution. The right will be as fully itsogniztd if the words are itruck out, as if they were retained : For if the people may converse, they must meet for the purpose. This motion was opposed by Mr. Gerry, Mr, Pace, Mr. ViNiNG and Mr. Hartly ; and the queilion being taken it was negatived. Mr. ITucker moved to insert these words, to infruEl their tifrtkntalivess This produced a long debate. Mr. Hartley. I could wish, Mr. chairman, that these words hid not been propose d. Rcprefentativcs ougnt to po fiefs the confidence of tiitir constituents ; they ought to rely on their honour and integrity. The practice of inftrutling representatives may be attended with danger ; we have seen it attended with bad consequences; it is commonly refprted to tor party purposes, and when the p»ilions are up. It is a r ght, which even in England is considered a problematical. The right of mftrufcting is liable to greatabufes; it will generally be exercised in umes of popular commotion; and these mftruaions will rather express the pre judices of party, than tfie di&ates of reason and policy. I nave known, Sir, fomany evils arise from adopting the popular opin ion of the moment, that I hope this <*ov rnment will be guard d againA ftich an influence ; and wish the words may not be in fixed. Mr. Pace was in favour of the motion- H© said, that the right may well be doubted in a monarchy ; but in a government iflftituted for the sole purpose of guarding the rights of the peo ple) it appears to me to be pi oper. Mr.CiYMER: I hope, Sir, the clause will not be adopted, for ifitis, we We must go further, and fay, that the representatives arc hand by the inftruttions, which is a mod dangerons principle, and udeftru&ive of all ideas of an independent and deliberative body. Mr.Sherman said, these words had a tendency to miflcad the people, by conveying an idea that they had a right to controul the debates of the federai legislature. Inflruftions cannot be consider ed as a proper rule for a rcprefentative to form his conduct by ; thev cannot be adequate to the purpose for which he i> delegated. He is to consult the good of the whole : Should inftruftions there fore coincide with his ideas of the common good, they would be unneceflary : If they were contrary, he would be bound by every principle of justice to disregard them. Mr. Jackson opposed the motion : He said this was a danger ous article, as its natural tendency is to divide the house into fac tions : He then adverted to the absurdities and inconsistencies which would beinvolved in adopting the measure. Mr. Gerry supported the motion : He observed, that to sup pose we cannot be inftru&ed, is to suppose that we are perfect : The power of inftru&ion is in my opinion cflential to check anad toimftration which should be guilty of abuses : No one will deny 1 ma y not happen :To deny the people this right is to ar- r ®pteto ourselves more wisdom than the whole body of the peo- Pepoliefs.—l contend, Sir, that our constituents have not only ® ri ght to inflruQ, but to bind this legiflature—lt has been con ed by the friends to the constitution, that the people are so- S n ; if so it involves an abfurdityto suppose that they cannot. °°t only inftruft, but controul the house : Debates may create 10ns, as well as inftruftions : We cannot be too well informed ; is is the befl method of obtaining information, and I hope we a never shut our ears against that information which is to be de- V \r v oice of the people. j /" adis °n that the exiftcnce of this right is at oujtlul. —I wish that the amendments may consist of an enu- ration of simple and acknowledged principles : The insertion propo.uions that are of a doubtful nature, will have a tenden- Cn judicethe whole amendments: The right rtow ted is doubtful, and will be so considered by many of the t ru Cs ' * n *° me refpe&s the declaration of this right may be t'tiat'/h ° ' 8 e • we m ean nothing more by it than this, rcen'^^ eC^'e 3Ve 8 r 'S^ lt to g' vc advice or express their fenti jlrpi an wi(he. it is true; but still unneceftary, as such a right is h aVf 7 r J co gnized : The press shall be free, and the people shall mea f ar^ c f r eedom of speech and petitioning: but ifitis the nr 3t 1 re P rc^cntat ' ve s are to be bound by these intrusions, f els • Suppose a rcprefentative is inftru6led to do cr ifice b' C ° ntrar y tot ! le P good ? Would he be bound to fa contrarvt°L will not the vote of a ent o ne ? if 'r^ ru^on as binding on the people as a differ ent to'" n n » sar e true, where is the right of the confti- must piti/f ' or is the advantage to tcfult from it? ' tf anbe / P erte^ other obligations, the most sacred ;or people are ik™) to l^e people. The gentlemau fays, the K ove reign; but who are thepeople ? Is every small Ms the vft" Eo? f E /- inhabitants of this diftrift ex lcc 0 People, when they may not be a thousandth par', and all tne.r inftru&ions may contradict the sense of the a hole people besides ? H .ve the people in detached alTemblies i right to violate the conltitution or controul the whole sovereign power? This would be setting up an hundred fovereign.les in the place of one. Mr. Smith (S. C.) was onpofed to the motion : The do£trine >f mitruttions would, in practice, operate partially : The States near the Tat of government will have an obvious advantage over those remote from it: There is no neceflity for so large a reprefen tatlon as has been determined on, if the members are to be guided in all their deliberations by positive inftruftions ; one member from a State will serve every purpose ; bi* then the nature ot the •jfLmbly will be changed trom a to a diplomatic bo dy : It would in fa£t be turning all our representatives into am bafTadors. Mr. Stone observed that to adopt this motion would change the nature'of the conltitutiou ; instead of being a representative government, it would be a singular kind of democracy ; in which, whenever aqueftion arises, what is the law P It will not be deter mined by recurring to the codes and institutions of Congress, but by collecting the various instruCtions from different parts of the Union. Mr. Gf.rry observed that several of the States had proposed this amendment, which rendered it proper to be attended to : In answer to Mr. Madison's query he fa id, he meant that induc tions thould be consistent with the laws and the conltitution. Mr. Li ve r more said that though no particular diitntts cou d inftru£t, yet the Legillatures of the States most undoubtedly pof felTcd this right. This assertion of Mr. Livermore was controverted by sev eral genclemen—by Mr. Sedgwick, Mr. Smith, Mr. Ames, nd Mr. Wads worth : The lall, speaking on the fubj ct ot inftrultions in general, said, I never knew merely political in tlru£tions to be observed ; and I never knew a repiefentativc brought to an account for it: But I have known representatives follow inftruftions, contrary to their private sentiments, and they have ever been despised for it. Oihei shave disregarded their in ftruftions, and have been re-ele£ted, and carefled. Now if tht people considered it as an inherent right in them to inftrutt their re presentatives, they would undoubtedly have punished the viola tion of such inftruftions ; but this I believe has never been the cafe. I consider the measure As haviug a miichicvous tendency. The debate was continued much longer, but in a desultory way, as the speakers appeared to take it tor granted, that they might touch upon collateral circumstances. The question on th motion being at length taken, it was negatived by a larg major ity; and then the committee agreed to the amendment in us o riginal form. The committee rose and the chairman reported progress. Mr. Am es introduced a motion that all questions on amend ments should be determined in committee, by two thirds of the members. Laid on the table. Adjourned, MONDAY, AUGUST 17. In committee of the whole on the fubjeft of amendments to the Conltitution. The 6th and 7th amendm nts were agreed to without alteration. In the on mot ion ol Mi. LAURANCE,aiter the words " nor shall" these words were infertcd, m any criminal cases The 9th wa> adopted without alteration. In the 10th, on motion ot Mr. Benson, after the words 4 * and ess its' thef words were infertcd, againji unreafonabte searches and seizures." 11th, 12th, 13th ana 14th, were agreed to in the.r original form. The committee then rose, and the house adjourned. TUESDAY, AUGUST 18. The committee appointed to bring in a bill to regulate the Post- Office, brought in arefoive, which, with the Preamble, was to the following efteft, That as the shortness of the time previous to the adjournment would not admit of making the necelTjry arrange ments, therefore Resolved, that the Post Master General be directed to continue the Post Office upon the system established by the late Congress, and that he be authorised to make the nceef fary contiadts, &c. Mr. Gerry introduced a motion upon the fubjeft of amend ments, to this purpoit, That such amendments to the Constitution of the United States as have been piopofed by the different States, which are not in the report of the fele£t committee, be referred to a committee of the whole house—.and that those, with the a mendnunts proposed by that committee, be included in one re port. This motion was introduced by a lengthy speech upon the lubjeft of amendments at large,and was seconded by Mr. Sumpter —This brought on a warm debate, whieh continued till near one o'clock—when thequeltion being called for from various parts of the house, the Ayes and Noes were required by Mr. Gerry. Upon which' Mr. Vi ning called for the previous question, and the Ayes and Noes were then required upon that also—this occa sioned a further debate—at length the Speaker directed the Clerk to call the Ayes and Noes on Shall the mam quejlion be put ? NOES. MefTrs Ames, Baldwin, Benfon, Boudinct, Brown, Cadwallader, Car rol, Clymer, Fitifimons, Fojler, Gilman, Goodhue, Hartley, Heijler, Hun tington, Lanrance, Lee, Madtfon, Moore, P. Muhlenberg, Partridge, Schureman, Scot, Sedgwick, Seney, Sylvejler, Sinnickjon, Smith, (S. C.J Smith, (M.J Thatcher, Trumbull, fining, IVadfworth, H'ynkoop. 34. AYES. Me firs Burke, Coles, Floyd, Gerry, Griffin, Grout, Hathorn, Liver more, Page, Parker, Van Ranfelher, Sherman, Stone, Sturgis, Sumpter, Tucker. 16. Majority 18. The House then went into a committee of the whole on the re port of the feleft comfnittee. The five remaining amendments were agreed to by the com mittee, with some little variation. They then rose, and the chairman reporced their proceedings, which, it was ordered (hould lie on the table for the consideration of the members. A melTage was received by the senate by their secretary, in forming the house that they had con urred with one amendment ; in the bill to provide for the necHTary cxpences attending nego ciations, and treating with the Indian tribes, &c. The proposed amendment was, to strike out " Forty," and infer!: twenty, which would make the provision for the expences twenty thousand inftfad of torty thousand dollars. Mr. Tucker presented a number of papers containing seven teen proposed amendments to the constitution ; which were read and laid on the table. The committee on the fubjeft of the disputed election of the members from New-Jersey, brought in a report containing a state of facts refpefting said election, which was read, and then the house adjourned. Seme account of the Debates of 17 th and 18th infant, fhal! ap pear in our vext. x CHARLESTON, (s. C.) JULY 11. The coinmiffioners appointed by the Britifli h's Ark; perhaps by examining the wood, whether of Sak, or Teke, it might be afceitained whereabouts it was built, or discover a timber for fliip-building, more durable than either of those." NEW YORK, AUGUST 19. Seventeen amendments > multiplied by fifty-nine (the number of members in a certain aflembly) give a produ