C O N 0 K .£ s S. of HOUSE or fcEPREsEtfTATIVE3, " r " WEDNESDAY, JUNE 14.' fell r Concluded from T 'rarfd'ty j if t Mr. Dayton (the Speaker) denied that p «i the debtor States were deprived of any as- pe< iftance from the sum already agreed to be bll appropriated generally. If the gentleman hoi read the firft clause of the bill he had , t(< differed his -warmth to overcome his memary, , j| ( as he there mull fee this wrt.i not the cafe.— ' (h. With refpeft to obtaining a ctffion of the ' tU three islands upon which the fortification* J<3 at New 7"ork were ertfted, he would not bc agree tb appropriate twenty cents for that ™ pnrpofe i nor did he believe the State of fl] New Tort would ever cede them. Mr. D. (,t said, it was yesterday observed that an odi- ft; ous diftin&ioa was made' with refpeft to th New fork, because not provided for; and now provision was made for her, gentlemen c( still talked of odious diftin&ions. He did not know what gentlemen would be fatisfied p with. " Ik Mr. D. said, living near New 2"ork, as tn he did, hehad frequent opportunities of con- et. verftng with the people of that city on this lL fabjeft, and so far from a proposition of this e kind being considered as an insult .to that State, he believed it would be highly grati- N fying to them. Nay, the Representatives at of that State had assured him last fef&on, in v converfalion, that if an offer like the pre sent came frorfi Cor.grefs ft would be well received. Every oc? of them said this, but they did not wiih taenifelves to propqfe it, r £ because it might be fuppafed they pledged the State to accept the offer, when they had a i Uo authority to do so. He had not heard an individnal fay it would not be well re- d ceived, and he could fee no ground for the '* present opposition. a Mr. Swan Wick. thought the amendment a good one. He believed the state of Pennsylva nia would be glad to difehafge their debt tothe b United State* in this way. f Williams doubted r.ot the assertion of j the gentleman from New-Jersey might be just ( aj to the citizens of New-Yorjc, but they wer« j. r.ot so with refpefl to other parts of that Rate, t and the representatives in the legislature cfme f chiefly from the weft and north of New-York er. Harpi* did not think it material.to .in- ' c quire into the dispositions of the people of the ( citv or country of New-York, on this occasion- ( The quellion was whether it was expedient to . make the present proposition—He thought it j was ; for it it were acceded to on the part of ( New-York, great good would be done—if not, . no harm could be the consequence. ( Mr. BReoKrs thought he knew the minds of ( his cor.fytuents better than the gentleman from ( New Jersey. He hatMieen in the legislature of ( New York for three years past, which he belie- ( Ved was the heft polfible situation for learning the political opinions of the (lite. He bel*eved a propefitten of this kind would not be well re ewved he called it an invidious from their-lifter dates ; It was- to fay to them, If you do nit fay your debt ( n > Mr. Brookes recapitulated his objec tions to this proposition. h Mr. Gallatin said he had voted for this ,; 1# amendfrient, because he conceived it to be h tr founded 011 just principles; and as he (hould -ipt now vote against it, it was necessary to give ei- his reasons for doing so. He believed the principle just, and proper to be used when ever the United States (hould go into a ge -11 neral plan of fortifications ; but, as this was 'ilj. only meant for a temporary provision against of danger, he believed it could not be abided by; because the danger might be greatest, and the afliftance wanted most, at a pjace which was not ceded. Be fides, he believed Pj"l there was not a single port in the United States had ceded exclusive jurifdiftion of of their territory, according to the conftitu -11- tion, and therefore this provision would go in- to preclude the whole from relief; as every ceflion which Jiad been made; p nvidcd Far a - concurrent jurilili&ion of tlie it&c. So far ref< as it related to PenflfyWwra,'ft«-Would not in < "be entitled to any support, Iwcaiife (he not up< only reserved a concurrent jurifdiffcion, but t-.ie provided that if the cefiion was not accepted doi within one year, it would be void, and more wo than one year had no elapsed, and the cef- an< lion was not accepted. ' S el The que ft ion wa* put, end tile amend ment negatived, there being only 30 for it- th; The next amendment was that limTting th« the interest of the money to be borrowed at Sii 6 per cent. Mr. W. Smith hoped they (hould not agree to this, but that they (hould agree to an expunge what related to a loan. Other ex- th penfes would be incurred, and he thought it Y< would be better to include the whole in one foi bill. ' ' - cri Mr. Gallatik believed there would be' th no ocCasion for a fpecific bill for a loan, a3 he believed the President had already fuffici-. ent power to borrow money, if it could be 1° got (alluding to the 5 millions 6 per cent all stock agreed to last feflion). He thought the present revenue would be fufficient, and tie that it was only neceflary to give a pawer of borrowing on anticipation. ** Mr. SwaNwick was in favor of continu- tJ ing the amendment, because the striking of it out, wonld appear as if they meant not di to limit the interest; to 6 percent. He con- 21 demned the praftice of borrowing oney 31 upon all occasions. Whilst they were me ditating schemes of. defence, he thought a they ought also to fix upon some mode of railing additional funds. He apprehended no good tl to the United State 3 from this fyftcm of bor- "J rowing. > c Mr. Harper denied that the present re- P venue could be relied upon to meet the ex ; penfes contemplated by this bill, especially * . if they took into consideration an authorised \ expence of 100,000 dollars, respecting the a , trade with the Indians. He therefore tho't - it neceflary to provide for them by a loan ; n 5 for taxes could not be laid and collected in ; time- to answer the exigency. In order to ■« : reimburse the loan, it would be neceflary of ? I course to provide taxes. Mn Swanwick was sorry to hear the F t gentleman last up advocating permanent • 1 - loans—[Mr. Harper said he did not mean 1 r " > permanent loans, but such as might be re- j c ' deemable in a few years.] Mi*. S. said, e f this would nevertheless be an increase of * } stock, and of course of debt. An irredeem- * - able debt would indeed be*a very extraordi- 1 d nary thing for this country. He understood I u his colleague to mean that whatever sum was I " borrowed, (hould be in anticipation of the revenue to be raised, which would answer 1 r I t"he idea of the gentleman from South-Cara- c e lina himfelf. By the method proposed of J ) ; felling stock to pay borrowed money, whilst ! it appeared we were only paying 6 per cent. '* | we were in faft paying 9or 10, because the , j stock was fold greatly below par. He hoped j" I therefore they (hould provide by taxes for all 1 [' ] the money they expended. Mr. W. Smith accused the gentleman i- last up with wandering from the fubjeft.— s > j The question was whether it was necefTary 5 " to fay any thing about a loan in this bill. . re Tlfere were two kinds of loan, one in anti cipation of existing revenue, another where there was no revenue to meet the expense. ut The present bill contemplated the former. It was neceflary to give tW President pow- j er to borrow, because if there was no surplus "» of revenue, the expense could not be met. "He did not objeft to the amendment because it limitted the interest of money, but'becaufe if the interest was agreed to, the appropria it- tion clause could not afterwards bi struck er out. Before they fofe, he trusted prcvifion would be made for the payment of whatever "f might be borrowed, in four or five years. He had no expeftation of money being bor jy rowed in any other way than in anticipation ut of the revenue. t ; Mr. N. Smith objefted to the interest d, of the money to be borrowed being limitted €t ' to 6 per cent, as he believed it crould not be borrowed at that rate, and it would be a *. r . mere farce to limit intereft at a price be es, low that at which it could be got. If money its was absolutely neceflary, it must be got up >es on the best terms upon which it could be :v " had. The President might certainly be b . c . trusted in tf-bufinefs of this fort, since no a one could believe he would pay more in rej tereft than there was a necessity for paying. :hc Mr. GallatiS was not for confiding ide wholly to the- President as to the Interest to °* be paid for money. It was usual, he said, :v " to limit the interest of all money to be bor rowed. Mr. G. reminded the gentleman from S. Carolina, of a saving in the last mi litary appropriation of 150,000 dollars less a- than the sum estimated, and contrary to tiat of gentleman's wifiies, which would corifidera ca- bly iucreafe the surplus of revenue. Mr. N. Smith mentioned the loan of a" fill million of dollars for the Algerine buiinefs, tc- which was authorised to be borrowed, with to out limitation of interest. Mr. Co it was in favor of dispensing with ro- the borrowing clause. iny Mr. Hartley spoke in favor of thelimi :he tation. He beh'eved money might be got to at 6 per cent. He (hould be unwilling to pay more, as it would increase the interest of ec- money generally. Mr. Brookes said the question was not his whether more than fix per cent ftiolJld be be paid for the interest of money, but whether uld the borrowing clause (hould be inserted at ive all. the Mr. Otis was of the fame opinion. He en- thought it would be best to have a diftinft ge- bilLfor all the money wanted, vas The question upon agreeing to the amend-' !nft ment limiting" the interest of money, was led negatived, there being 44 for it, and 50 eft, against it. ace The next amendment was the clauie ap fed propriating 40,000 dollars for the fortifica ted tions of S. Carolina and Georgia, of Mr. Gallatin hoped this would be dif tu- agreed to, since the amendment limiting the go general expenditure to such places as had :ry ceded their jurifdidbon, had been negatived. Mr. W. Smith moved that tlie hou(e \ ' refoiW itfilf into a committee of the' whole, 1 , . r in order to take the sense of the committee Re £ upon striking out the 7;, 000 dollars for < the purpose of adding this sum 01 40,000 faq, -dollars to it, since fie fuppoled thia clause hie, would be negatived, because S. Carolina* and Georgia would now be included in the general appropriation. Several members having exprefled a wi(h IVi . that this motion might be withdrawn until Qlt the other amendments were gone thro' Mr. mai Smith withdrew it. The provision was then negatived. '' * The amendment proposed by Mr. Allen J* and amended by Mr. Havens, empowering ' . the president to authorize the State of New par York to ef-pend a certain sum upon their f ivc fortificatious, which (hould be put to the Su credit of the balance ,due from that State to ' the Un\.'d State?, then occurred. ™ - M*. Srookes opposed the Mr. Cochran prefpofed to add the fol lowing words, in orr»jr to cover the expence 0 f already incurred iu. the fortifications at New ha< York, viz. " or which may have been expen ded by any State for the purpose aforcfaid. " Mr. Galtatin had no objection to the ™ two millions which New York owed the .j-j United States being expended upon their ln fortifications; but this amendment went to discharge the State of New York from the fee 200,000 dollars already expended, wether lc. any more was expended, or not. This amendment was negatived, without a divilion. Mr. Harper proposed to add, after gr the State of New York, "under the dtreSion of the President of the United States," as afe- gj curity for the money being properly em- >n , ployed. _ _ _ '■ After alittleconverfation, this motion was ■ was carried without a division. [ The question was then on tl)e amendment ■ as amended, Mr. Macon was for rejefting the amen- . ment. ' . . C J Mr. M'Dowel was of the fame opinion. > He objected to the amendment on two rf f grounds, he thought it wrong to call upon u the Debtor State in this indirect way for the f > payment of their balances, and he thought [ it also Wrong to throw away so much mo- , i ney on fortifications, which he said could be r .|of no use, for though they might prevent an £ ' enemy from landing at the particular point f where they were fixed, they could not pre- t j vent them from landing at some neighbour- n ing spot, and being landed they would take . j pofleflion of the fort, and turn the guns a- s gainst ourselves. a e Mr. Brookes opposed the pafling of r the aniendment', and thpught.the only way j. „ of fettling the business of the debts, would v f be Ey a conference with the state of New \ York. c Mr; FimDley insisted upon it th.it the balan- , " ces were fetrled, . and cquU not now be quef j tiontd: - , " Mr. Baldwin gave his vote, in the commit- J 11 tee of the whoie, in favor "of "this, because he { h»d been informed it would be acceptable to the J n state of New-York.' If he. thought fitch 4 pro- [ _ position would be difagrecable to them, he would not have supported it. He believed, 7 when passion l'ubfirfed", this settlement between ] f' the States and the United States, would be ac- 1 i- k'nowledged to be a perfe£tly*.fair tranfaijlion 1 re With refpefl to the latter part of the imcid- 1 e. ment, requiring the jurildiition to be ceded, he r _ Ihould be oppoled to it. lie did not wiih to in- S fift upon an £xclufivi right. He was willing " (the states should go on with thyr governments is in their own way,'' without 'interference, in y 1 farther thin was neceflary to keep peace.amoi)jjft i fe them and with foreign nations. ' i fe • Mr. Vaknum said it would take upward; of" a- twenty 'millions of dollars to extend this plan of . •Jj. fortifications throughout the Cniied States, and • there was no doubt when it was done in one place, others wouid spply for the-bke attention. er He was therefore opposed to, it. -s - Mr. "Bayard did not why,they fliou'd >r- tfifcrimifiate"betwixt, one place and another ; an they ltruck out the clause refpefUrg South Ca rolina and Georgia on this ground, and he trus ted tjiey fiiould disagree to this. He objefled to " , it also, becatife it teemed to admit the Hate ba- lances', as jufily due. Mr. B. then went at con "e fiderable length into the manner of the fettle a ment of the commissioners, denied that the >e- debts were justly due, and lioped there would ey be a re-f»tticment. Gentlemen favd they voied p. for this to oblige the debtor Hates. It was an y odd way of obliging them, by voting for a mea , e sure which would dtftroy the existence of fame of the states. no Mr. Harter observed that the gentleman's in- arguments would have been exaitly in point, ig. had the fubjeft of the balances been under con njr fideration. Mr. Otis said he yesterday voted for the a ., mendinem ; he was led fo from the idea 1G ' that he Was conferring a favor on the state of >r " New York? but having since with an the reprefentatives.from that state, he had been ni- aftonilhed to find, they .were generally against it. ess He (hould therefore decline doing them a favor lat in fpiteof themselves. He was abouyo follow [_ a Mr. Bayard in his observations ; but the Spea ker said he had impropeily fuffered that gentle man to proceed, and couid not admit a farther ' a deviation from o-der. Mr. S. Smith spoke in favor of the amend th- ment, and hoped the gentiemau last up would not throw away his vote 5 for though some ; t h states might not choose to accept, of the offer oth ers would. Mr. M'Dowell again spoke against themo ni" tion. , 'Ot the gentleman from to Maltachufelts n»t to take the ground of oppo ;of Ction he had taken, since the amendment ref pe(fting jurifdiition had been negaiived, he was lot in favor of this cltufe. He d'd no: think an a » greement to this propofitiou was a recognition e of the debt, nor did he think any state's agree r ing to it, would commit others. He _wifhed at thufe states who thought themselves unjustly thaigtdwiih these balances might have this op- He poitunliy of getting cltar of thein. n Mr. Van Al*n opposed this amendment, and concluded with faying, it was justice in the , United States to fortify the port of New York, n ' and it was equally justice in that state to pay vas her debt. He wished her to be called upon, but 5° not in this way ; it was treating her 111 a man ner which (he did not deserve. ap- The sense of the house was then taken upon ca- the firft part of the proportion by yeas and nays as follow : YEAS Mcflis. Allen, Baldwin, Balrd, BradburJ', t '"* Brent, Cabell, Champlin, CUpton, Cochran, lad Coil, Dana, Davenport, Ege, Elmeadorf, E ed. vans, Tiadley, Oalljtm, Oi'.e*, Goodrich, Giif- w> Id, Ha.p-r, Harrifo", Hartley, tijveni, Holmu. Httfmeii foiws, Rfteraf Lycrjiu. Mil* ledge,morgan, Ni.:hokt,Parker, Porter, RteJ.Scftureman, Sliep'iird,Sinitiefcfon, (.Smith, • N Smith,S.Smith, Sprigg, SwanWiek, Thomp foa, A. Trigg, J. Trigg,-Van Cortland*, Vena ble, Wadiwurth - jo. NAYS. MetTrs. Baer, Biyard, Blount, Brooks, Bry an, Uulluck, CUirborne, Clay, Craik, Oivir, Oawl'on, Deams, Dent, A. Foflpr, D. Fofttr, Fouler, J. Free:riin, N, Freemm, Gultipie, Oleim, Gordon, Gregg, Grove, Hanna; Hind man, Locke, Lyen, Machir, Macon, Matthews, M'Clerachan, M'Dougall.Otis, Kutledge.Sew all, Skinner, W. Smith, (C.) • ?raith,_ (P. ) Standf«rd, |»umpter, Thomas, VanAlen, Var- \ cum, R. -Williams—4*« The quefliou was now taken upon tht latjer part of the intendment, providing that exclu sive jurifdi&ion be placed in the United Stares. Several |«cpofitio3» were nfferfd for the a mendmcnt of this clause. It was prope'ej by Mr. Kitteri, that where Va«d was cuecl Tyy a ftateto' the United States, or purehafedlw the United States of an individual,'by t(i- etuietit of theftate, a concurrent juriraiftion & ntl 1 i>« . had. _ '"' * This motion wasnee'tived 43. to '.°- s - Mr. ELM tNDOK F tfien propose! ment, omitting the words-"-by ednfent fef the state," which was carried, thye being 48 for it. The amendrfient, as amended, was then pat and carried, there being 5? for it •' • \ Mr. W. Smith then moved to strike out the second feflion of the bill, in order to leave the loan to a future law. Mr. Gallatin \j ilhedtlie gejuleman to con fine hirufelf to the loan, and not: to the appro priation. * Mr. Smith consented, and the motion was a greed to Mr. W. Smith then moved that the house a gain resolve itfelf into a committee of the whole, iri order to add the 40,000 dollars proposed to be appropriated for South Carolina and Geor gia, to the 75,000 for the general appropriation. He shewed at length the j»if) ice of this meafi^e. Mr. Rutledge seconded the motion,and said he trailed the vote of the House would , r be confident with that of the committee.— The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin)* had moved, in the committee of the whole House, for a reduction or the fun ' recommended by the feleft c.ommittee, le \ cajife Carolina and Georgia were to be ex cluded from a participation of the general ' appropriation, they not haying ceded to the. United State? the jurifdittion of the territo " ry where fortifications had been and were to ' be erected, and because special provision was 1 to be made for fortifying those states. But " the House having determined not to discrimi nate between the states which had ceded-the " jurifdi&ion of their territory and those which had not,, and the clause in the bill which , appropriated 40,000 dollars for fortifying J Carolina and. Georgia being expunged, he l hoped the gentleman from Pennsylvania would not be so uncandid as to oppose the ' ,int'Oduftion of the sum which had been re commended by the committee. The reafoif [- he had afligned for reducing it being that a special provifioil would be made for fortifj . Ing '.he southern .states, and the clause- which , e provided for {heir; defence being ekilroyed, e Mr. R. hoped the gentleman would not lie so inconsistent as to limit the appropriation j e to 75,000 dollars, but would now vote -&r n ' 115,000, and thus, by adding the sum votw fort Moultrie was afterwards taken, and the whole state overrun by the enemy—but the lrr conquest was made by an irrefiftable force, after a very long and gallant defence, id- Mr. R. thought 30 or 40,000 dollars, ex 'ld pended judiciously, would put Charleston in a complete state of defence. He admitted that veflels might pass a fort without re -10. ceiving rr.ucfi injury—but contended, that whenever 'twas ppfiible to have a crofs-frc mi on them, few commanders would be so 3o- venturous as to carry Ihips into fnch a peril ,oU3 situation. He described the harbour of l ' a6 Charleston as being very capable of complete defence by fortifications. He said the fe fe. cretary at war contemplated fortifying aa lc j island opposite to fort Johnson, and when Illy that shall be done, veflek attempting to pass op- it will encounter a ctpfs fire. Mr. R. dwelt much on the nccefliiy of fortifying the coast of the southern states—described it as being very extensive, and having near it much ia y wealth, and that of a very perishable nature. hut In all events, he said, even in th-.t of our an- being certain a general peace will immediate ly take place, fortifications would be neccf ?°n fary in'the south. Let whatever ordfr of a y*- things obtain ia Europe—the revolution had , been so complete in the Weft-Indies—everv |r j >) thing which was venerable and refpe&able r3r> had been so entirely subverted—anarchy ar.d E- | disorder were so prevalent and extensive there iiif- f«r years to Cflme wc mull erpeft ta