May 14, 1974
Questions directed to Mr.
Paul by Fred Prouser and Bill
Squires. Transcribed by Peg
Dillon.
Q. Not recorded on tape
A. To my understanding, it
was to try and get better
acquainted. Correct me if I'm
wrong.
Q. Right . And it was to bring
your side, your view of the
situation on campus regarding
security in an open forum so
that it could clear up some
misunderstandings and it would
provide a vehicle to express your
views on subjects that a lot of
people would have in their
minds but either don't have the
opportunity or for some other
reasons can't express them. So
one of the things, with the
establishment of the Student
Security Committee, there seems
to be a conflict that it was seen,
the need was there for a long
time but the students went out
on their own, pressed for it and
finally were successful and have
gotten some force in action and
finally, how do you view that in
you terms? (Prouser)
A. Well, we've been trying
since I've been here to get a
student patrol and I wanted to
take contract people away from
the issuing of traffic violations
notices completely and we were
unable to get volunteers for the
position. We were successful in
taking the 5:30 to 8:30 position
Q. Is that p.m.? (Prouser)
A. Yes, p.m., traffic control,
parking control out in front of
the building away from the
Guard Service and giving it to
the students and I'd say pretty
near, this is the third year now.
In the past, we had two young
ladies working and the rest of
the time it was men.
Q. Now, are their student
security officers during peak
traffic hours directing traffic?
(Prouser)
A. No, traffic control per se is
not permitted by the student
patrol. Right now their jobs are
to control the parking lots and
as soon as we get locomotion in
for them, mobility, then they
are going to expand from simply
the main parking lot to the
placement center, the athletic
activity building, the engineering
lab, Meade Heights, as well as
the Residence Hall areas. Right
now they are only patrolling the
main parking lot.
Q. So, for the time being,
their purpose will be just to
control motor vehicle violations?
(Prouser)
A. No, they also have foot
patrol in the Heights, when we
have no other coverage. We
depend on Maintenance
personnel during the business
day when they are well covered
in the Heights there, the office is
open and so forth. At five
o'clock when security police
comes on, in the form of Mr.
McGregor then the student
patrol secures. On the weekend,
during the days when
there are
no security police on, student
patrol is on.
Q. What specific powers do
they have in the Heights?
(Prouser)
A. Observe and report.
Q. Just observe and report.
(Prouser).
A. Yes.
Q. And then it's up to your
office to carry through on the
reports? (Prouser)
A. Yes, to carry on the
investigation, make a
determination, and such, or if
it's of an emergency nature, the
civil police, the patrol is
instructed to contact the civil
police. They are not, under any
circumstances, to put themselves
in jeopardy. They are to observe
and report. They don't have any
authority other than civil arrest.
It's ridiculous to expect them to
go in and stop a brawl or
something of that sort.
Q. Right. (Prouser)
A. The main thing is to have
the student contact there to
preclude situations that may be
C.C. Reader Interview With Mr. Pau
developing going into
something that the police would
have to move in on.
Q. Well, with their powers as
they are now, why was the
waiver of, the statement asking
for permission to go into their
personnal records, credit, school,
military, financial necessary?
(Prouser)
A. That is always a
requirement when you go into a
position of trust and confidence.
The job they have is definately a
position of trust and confidence.
You've got to have someone that
you can place your trust and
confidence in.
Q. (Bill Squires) If you can do
it, why were the signatures
required?
A. As a courtesy to the
individual, to let them know
that it would be done.
Q. Could it have been done
without their signatures?
(Prouser)
A. Absolutely, yes sir.
Q. What is the image that you
project to the students? How do
you feel you come across to
people? Do you feel perhaps
thare might by any
communications problems here?
How do you see yourself in the
students perspective? (Squires)
A. Within the last year, taking
the term, the last school year,
very poorly because of unjust
and bad press.
Q. Do you feel that it was, as
has been said, or I've heard it
mentioned that it's a few that
are bad-mouthing and .• . .
(Prouser)
An absolute minimum,
Q. And then it spreads?
(Prouser)
A. It's less than, I'd venture
to say, less than 50, maybe even
down to 30 people and the hard
core of that is down to just a
few. The reasons are well known
and such, but what can you do.
I'm in the position, we went
through it before, of the police
department in a small
community a township, a
residential area. You're a public
servant. You're paid as a
professional police officer and
part of that is to take the abuse
as a professional police officer
and part of that is to take the
abuse that is given to you for
performing your job.
Q. Do you think that
students understand you
intentions? (Squires)
A. I think the major part, yes.
I'd like to hope they do.
Q. Do you see, okay, the
Student Security Force was
instituted this term. The Juniors,
that will be Seniors next year,
will have experienced the whole
transition. The next class, in
about two years, they will come
to the school and there will
already be an established
Student Security Force and it
will be the status quo per se. Do
you view that then a change in
attitude in views might be
possible with a new student
body and the quote "few' who
are spreading the bad press are
out? (Prouser)
A. In theory, this should
work out.
Q. And with the new class,
could you see an opening of
chance for communication
perhaps? (Prouser)
A. Really, I think anyone in
the student body that has made
any effort to communicate with
myself has found you might say,
a rude awakening to the point
that rm eligible to be
communicated with, sure, I'm
a father. I had a boy who got
his ass in a jam and I had to
correct. I got a daughter that lies
like hell, she's going to school
and man, you know, it's no
different and I was a kid once,
got in jams and lied. You and I
had a little bit of difference one
night when a situation was going
on and you were looking to do
your job and your job, in
accomplishing it, was giving me a
bit of a hard time. I asked you
to please stop and desist and you
wanted to do your job so you
continued, so, I don't think you
can say I held a hard-on for you,
Q. No, we were in the wrong
to an extent. (Prouser)
A. The individual that I spoke
to in the initial point was
definitely in the wrong. The
spirit of the law was enforced.
The letter of the law, no. He
didn't get a ticket and look he
could have, he should have,
really because he was
endangering traffice pretty
badly.
Q. Right. (Prouser)
A. But I don't think that a
ticket would do that young boy
any good, to pay a fine like that.
I think the way it was handled,
it did him a lot better. Of
course, you and I got off on a
bad start then, but then it
rationalized itself later and one
thing I don't do and this is,
personally I'm making the
statement, it's up to other
people to verify it later on. I
don't hold a grudge. If a lose a
battle, what the hell, that's what
I'm fighting for. That's what I'm
working for is as an American
form of justice. If somebody
higher than me says "You're
wrong" okay they made the
decision. I don't agree, with
them - I don't have to agree with
them. But that's it.
Q. For the most part you're
instructed to enforce the
University regulations and
there's . . . (Prouser )
A. No, my job charges me
with enforcement of state law
and University rules and my
regulations for safety and
security.
Q. Okay, there's a conflict
there, within the University
policy that in effect when we
have a dorm contract or a house
contract, we are renting the
space and that the house may be
entered or the room may be
entered at any time. That's a
conflict that has to be resolved
in the courts eventually, could
you say? (Prouser)
A. No, it's been resolved in
the Courts already. It's been to
the Supreme Court on a
minimum of three occasions that
I know of, decisions have been
rendered favorable to the
institution but decisions came
down that security police, or
security officer in the routine
performance of his duty may
enter, he may not assist or
service another law enforcement
agency or organization and
enter. If he is assisting another
organization then the warrant
must be obtained. But if he is in
the normal performance of his
duty within his jurisdiction, he
may enter.
Q. How does probable cause
enter into that, clear and present
danger? (Prouser)
A. Well, you must have
probable cause before you do
anything. Before a peace officer
is justified in any action he has
to have probably cause. In other
words, he has to have
information from a reliable
informant, or he must have
observed contraband or
something of that sort,
personally, himself or it must be
at the request of another
University officer.
Q. When a house is entered
on campus, must another
University official be with you?
(Prouser)
A. A University official is any
other employee of the
University, housing and food
service
Q. Administrative? (Prouser)
Q. Coordinator, housing
coordinators, administrative
officer, finance officer, Mr.
South, any professor, any
person. Any other employee of
the University who is an agent
or University officer or a student
for that purpose.
Q. Getting back to the
student security force, it's just
been in effect a few short weeks,
could you assess it at all, the
eight people that are now on the
force? (Prouser)
A. It's fantastic as far as I'm
concerned. The men and young
lady...
Q. Irene (Tunier). (Prouser)
Q. When I say men I take
Irene in too, they have good
spirit, they are working pretty
closely together. The patrol has
been instrumental in furnishing
information of a very sensitive
and serious nature which resolved
a pretty good-sized criminal
activity on the campus that
through their help, they
initially gave me the leads that
worked up in breaking the case.
And they are diligent in the
performance of their duties and
Paul (Reich) here is the Student
Supervisor. The only probelm is
that as students and youth, you
know, they don't have the sense
of responsibility that is required,
that the job comes first.
Q. When you assume your
post in the afternoon as Student
Security officer, you're no
longer a student any more for
that time period? (Prouser)
A. No, I wouldn't say that.
You're still a student but you
are also an agent of the
University now.
Q. So you're two roles?
(Prouser)
A. This is true.
Q. And how do you .. .
(Prouser)
A. This is true, this is part of
the training and we have a
continuous training program to
where they will, I hope, see the
situation in the eye of the
student and they can mitigate
their actions a bit along that line
like, well, take for instance, the
Heights. On the evening patrol,
9:30 at night or so, party going
on, alcoholic beverages, it could
be inside or outside, in open
view, and a little boisterous and
somebody is trying to study near
by, okay? Each one of these
people have rights, and the rights
of each must be honored. So
rather than the patrol having to
go over with the security police,
I think it would be much more
compatible for the student
patrol to go up and say "Hey,
come on, the people next door
are wanting to study, they have
exams in the morning" or
whatever the case may be,
"they've complained about the
noise, can you take your party
inside or temper it or keep it
down and the alcoholic
beverages has to be served inside,
it can't be outside." And in
theory, again, it should be
received a lot better than the
police have because, although,
I've got to say this, in the four
years that I've been here I've
never had any problem with the
nature in going in to parties and
asking them to quiet down and
such. You get a lot of ribbing
and "have a drink" and so forth,
but what the hell, this is good
clean fun. We never had a bust
for that, I told people: "If you
can't have your keg outside here,
put the damn thing inside the
door, close the curtain and keep
the spigot sticking out, I can't
see the keg then and they still
get their beer outside. So what
are you doing? It's the spirit of
the law, not the letter and this I
think is what you know, is . . .
Q. The whole idea of campus
security is ... (Prouser)
A. More or less to protect
themselves.
Q. You're not out to give
everybody a royal hassle?
(Prouser)
A. No way. I think this can
well be substantiated by
anybody that wished to, can
come over and look at the log
and look at the number of
warning notices issued, the
written warning notices, hell,
they run up to 150 or 170 for a
ten-week period and the written
warnings, the notices without
writing go up pretty good too, as
opposed to maybe 10 or 15, to
be on the safe side, say 15 to 20
cases of moving violations that
are issued.
Q. Cases that are taken to
Student Court? (Prouser)
A. Yes, either they pay the
fine, most of them cause they
know damn well that when they
got it, they were really guilty,
like say 55 in a 20 mile zone. I
have no complaints. I like the
job as such. Besides the hassle on
a stop sign they are paying five
dollars to learn the lesson. That
half of the state fine and there's
no court cost and no points
involved and it stays here on
campus. Well, it's a gentle
reminder that hurts like hell
because it happens in the wallet
and that hurts anybody. By
golly, you can't drive like that.
Bul it has to be a pretty flagrant,
open violation for them to get
the ticket.
Q. Now this is University
property so any moving
violations do not carry points
with them? (Prouser)
A. Only because of the
policy.
Q. Right. (Prouser)
A. It may well change ...
Q. Yes, that's what I'm
getting at. They are thinking of
changing it to a municipal road.
(Prouser)
A. No, it is a state road now,
but the University counsel is
reviewing the matter on whether
they want to go totally to the
Magistrate's Court.
Q. Any moving violations
would involve points?
A. They're waiting a decision
from the Board of Directors and
the University Counsel.
Q. Will it have a big effect?
(Prouser)
A. Yes, sure because they fart
around up there in the Heights,
drag race, and such like that,
because if there is that, then it's
no longer a University situation.
The magistrate listens to hear a
violation of the law and if
there's a violation of the law and
mitigating circumstances don't
count unless it's an emergency
or something of that sort, simply
because you're too late for a
class or your buddy was down
the street waiting on you,
something of that sort, it don't
count, where now it does.
Q. Are you the same off duty
as on duty? Are there two
different roles that you . . .
(Squires)
A. Most people say I'm a
prick both ways. No, I'm
hard-nosed with my children, in
certain respects and the rest of
it, well I'd say I'm human. You
can talk to the fellas on the
patrol, the people on the patrol
have gotten to know me and you
know they do get to know each
other when you work with one
another. I don't think there is
anyone that likes a practical
joke more then myself. I love
them.
Q. If you could wrap up, like
what you would like your image
to be, what you would hope for
in the future for security
between administration and
between students and the whole
campus community, how would
you like it to be? (Prouser)
A. Well, honestly, an honest
thumb nail sketch, it would have
to be a person who believes in
his job and believes in the
requirements of the job and
looks to the better the
community by enforcement of
the rules, regulations and laws
with temperance of the
University atmosphere because
you couldn't possibly hold the
job if you didn't temper the
sitaution to the University
atmosphere.
Q. You had mentioned once
before that it is a rather unique
arrangement here with the
Heights and the dorms? (Prouser)
A. It could be a beautiful
situation if the student body
would move into it and take it.
It could have, I, actually, I could
perceive, what I foresaw when I
first came in here was that the
Heights be established as an
entity in itself, a political
sub-division for experience in
living where you could have
your own so to speak Mayor,
council, your own magistrate,
your own student police
department, just, you could
duplicate Lower Swatara, the
township, of the borough of
Middletown or such within the
campus and the magistrate could
sit every other evening or
whatever and hear the
complaints of the individuals,
that maybe he is pissed off at
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