under despotic governments, whose foil in irfelf is the most fertile imaginable, that scarcely pro duce subsistence for the inhabitants, and jntirely owing to the badness of the governments —Where there is no security for property, none are am bitious of acqoiring it ; the accumulation there of, is but an inducement to their tyrants to de prive them even of their lives, in order to pofl'efs their property —Under ihefe circumstances men are desirous of procuring only so much as ftiall be barely fufficient for their sustenance—The consequence is plain, the agricultural interelt fuffers, the ground not half tilled, and the coun try wearing a miserable appearance—On the con trary, where the citizen enjoys liberty and secu rity for his property, he is desirous of increasing it, and makes the belt use of his lands ; the coun try puts on " a gay, pleasant and prosperous ap pearance," and that in gradation from a tyran nical government to a free one, in pr oportion to the goodness of the constitution. These effeds of our excellent constitution are visible to every obftTvtr, and acknowledged by every friend to the government —All who acknowledge a divine Providence, inuft own to be the prime source of both profperltyand adverlity ; and sometimes, for wife purposes, it is exercised in adverse dis pensations ; thus we fee partial evil in the midst of general good, without destroying the univer sal influence of second causes—Such may have been the cafe during the lall fuinmer—ln the course of Providence a drought prevailed infome places, yet notwithstanding, there was a general appearance of fertility in the country —though graft failed in lome places, yet was there a plen tiful harvest ; nor did that partial evil militate againfi the benign influence of our government, in its happy effeds upon the country at large, nor lead to a conclusion that the government is defective. lam at the fame riine sorry to find our Refpondcnt casting reflecftions upon a state, which however amiflaken policy may for a while, have made backward in fubferibing to theconlti tution, yet now is a sister in union with us. New- Jersey, November 10, 1791 CONGRESS. PHILADELPHIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, MONDAY, November 14,1791. IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE. Debate on the Ratio oj Reprefentntivn. TVT 1 *- UNDLEY declared himfelf to be in fa vor of one representative for every 30,000 persons, The opinion of the people, he said, should be the guide of the committee : that opinion, he conceived to be in favor of the ratio he had men tioned. The representation ought as nearly as possible to ex pre Is not only the will, but to participate 111 the Tvifhes and interests of the people—A large representation embraces these interests more ful ly, and is more competent to gi v "ing and receiv ing information. The objects of legiflatioii are fach as come home to the doors, to the feelings ol every man ; the government ought therefore to secure the confidence of the people by a larcre representation. The expence he considered "s trifling compared to the benefits—and the people expec't and are willing to pay for being well go veined, and having their liberties secured. An encreafed representation, he considered as an additional security against corruption. As to delays occasioned by a numerous body—he ob served. that the representatives were chosen to deliberate, and to mature every fubjeiTt before oecilion He inllauced the advantages derived trom the numerous representations in France and in Ireland The former had fraoied aconftituti on in two years for twenty-fix millions of citi zens, and provided for securing the liberties of Jvp nui ;y—and the latter had proved a fuc ce s, u L.airier against the encroachments of the arbKrary power of England. He concluded, by a ertnig that the voice of the people was in fa vor of the amendment proposed to the conftitu -10.., Viiich would give une representative to eve- T y 3°>ooo persons. Mr. Giles -This fubjeft, said he, has struck me in two points of view—Whether Congress are not preceded from exercising any discretion on the fubjeA • and whether, if they are not. it is expedient for them to exercise this discretion at this time. The ratio of representation is a conltitutxonal, and not a legifiaiive adt. He re- A°n l u* C ° ,,(V " mion ' in Nvllich is said that L/l n °r re P re, " entat ive to every state, and secondly, that until the enumeration, the AN OPPONENT nnmber flionld be as therein appointed to each (late—after the enumeration the numbqr is men tioned, below which it (hall not be placed—but there is a negative power to increase the ratio— and from this negative power, a positive discreti onary power is inferred. But, he observed, than "Congref* had precluded itfelf from a right to exercise this discretionary power, by fending out to the several date legislatures, an amendment on this very fubjecl—this amendment lie consi dered in a ferions point of view ; and had this idea been attended 10 at the commencement of the discussion, he conceived that it would have prevented the opinioYi from being brought for ward, whether it was expedient that any change in the ratio of the representation (hould take place—The idea of one to 30,000, he tonfidered as fully fetijed in the minds of the people ; and a change 011 the part of the government, would indicate a changeable disposition, and a 111 utabiii ty of counsels, which is but another name for weakness. The sense of the people have been retorted to by gentlemen on both fides ofthequeftion—this, if it can be ascertained, is undoubtedly the belt guide ; and he thought thole in favor of one to 30,000 had with great propriety referred to the conventions, and to the adls of Congress itfelf. But the amendments are said to have been a matter of compromise, and were insincerely ac ceded to by the majority—but even 011 this ground he conceived, that the sense of the people was equally at well declared.—He however differed from gentlemen in refpeift to the motives wlych produced ihofe amendments—in the ftate'he came from, both federalifts and anti-federalifts were fully of opinion that.further fecurhy as to the representation, wasrequifite. The numerous representations of the states, whatever inconveniences may attend them, plain ly shew the sense of the people on the fubjeA. He then took a view of the objccls of Icgifla tion to the state afterablies, and of those of the general government —in the former, he said, a bove ioooperfons are employed, though their attention is confined to their internal police— Those of the general government on the other band, are on the great objects of the whole fi nance of the Union, a sum of more than eighty millions of dollars, &c. &c. It is said that we shall want abilities—but, said he, I fhonld be sorry if a reprefenration of ten times the present number of this House, fliould comprize the abilities of a single state. He afligned different causes from numbers, for the corruption in*tlie British House of" Commons —among these wtfre the frequent mortgages of the funds, and the iiijmenie appropriations at the difftofal of the executive—the mode of their elections, &c. A large number, he observed, is not so easily corrupted as a small body. An inequality of circumstances, he then observ ed, produces revolutions in government, from democracy to aristocracy and monarchy. Great wealth produces a desire ofdiftintftions, rank and titles—The revolutions in property in this coun try, have created a prodigious inequality of cir cuniftances—Government has contributed to this inequality—the Bank of the United States is a most important machine in promoting the objects of this monied imereft—this bank will be the most powerful engine to corrupt this House— some of the members are direiftors of this inflitu tion—and it will only be by increafingthe repre sentation that an adequate barrier can be oppos ed to this monied interert. He next adverted to certain ideas -Which he said had been difl'eminated through the United States ; and here he took occasion to observe, that the legislature ought to express some public disapprobation of these opi nions—The strong executive ef this government ought to be balanced by a full reprefentatioH in this House. He hoped the motion to strike out 30,00# would not obtain. Mr. Boudin»t closed the debate of this day, by a few remarks, reinforcing his former obfervaci ons in favor of an increased ratio. TUESDAY, November 15 Mr. Page.—l can 110 longer refrain from ex pressing my sentiments refpecling the queltion before the committee ; not only because \ wifhif paifibie to remove the error which I think seve ral members, tor whom I have the highest respect, have fallen into, but because I feel Inyfelf more interested in the question than 1 ever was in any one I have had to decide on. Sir, it gave me pain to find those worthy mem bers calculating and coldly applying the rules of arithmetic to a lubjedt beyond the power of num bers to express the degree of its importance to their fellow-citizens. I was distressed, fir, to find that in their honelt zeal for securing order, dis patch of btifinefs, and dignity in refpetftability of members in the general legislature, they ufed'ar guments which have been applied in other coun tries to the eftablifoment of insolent aristocracies —in some, tyrannical despotisms- and in others, Kings ; thole countries which were :noll on their guard with the semblance of a free government 238 Sir,the errors I wifli to correct are these ■T ! think that because it is propoftd, by a 1 mendmenc to the Constitution, to authorise th to interfere in the business of afcertainine fixing the ratio of reprefesmation to the po PU |' ■ tion of the States, that Congress ought, with o ' any hefuation, to enter on that bufnief»_butl humbly conceive, that Coogreft, as this is a deli cate quellion in which their own weight and portane'e must nnire wjth the weight aiid fab'u"' £ ial intereil or their coulhtucnts, ought to to the suggestions of delicacy, and feave its jjf cuffion to a difintereffed convention of the States" I fay it appears to me no firrall error to q jip tl ,®* plain path of legislation, marked out for us bv the Coiiil itution, needlessly io wander into the field of political '(peculation, its poled defects. 3 * Let nie therefore advise to leave the reftrk